Just For The Record...

by hilzoy

I do not have a "Virulent Passion for Terri's Death". I am not "in a rush to kill" her. I am not "In Love With Death". I do not "want Terri killed" because "she’s an overgrown fetus that outlived her welcome." I do not "want her to die" at all, for any reason. I believe that she, like every other adult, has the right to refuse medical treatment. That's a completely different story.

I do not believe that Terri Schiavo's life is worth less than anyone else's, that "Terri Schiavo's life is of limited quality -- therefore, Terri Schiavo is not worth saving", or (worse still) that "She is worthy of death unless she or her agents prove that her life is worth sustaining." I certainly do not think that we "can sentence Terry Schiavo to death, because she is too severely handicapped to live." I do not believe that this has anything to do with the worth of her life. I do not think that there are some people who are so valuable that when they are ill, we should treat them against their wishes, but that Terri Schiavo is not among them. I believe that every adult, including Terri Schiavo, has the right to decide for him- or herself whether to accept or refuse medical treatment.

I do not describe those who argue that Terri Schiavo should be kept alive as wanting the government to be able to order us to undergo surgery against our wills whenever a large enough group of protesters demands it. I know that, with the possible exception of Randall Terry, that is not what motivates them. I wish they would do me the same courtesy.

Comments

[dmbeaster]

That is the reason for this hate filled rhetoric -- so that they do not have to give you the "same courtesy." This is the front line of their culture war, and they demonize non-believers just as soldiers are taught to demonize the enemy.

If only we could get to a "have you no decency" moment with the Randall Terry types. Otherwise, expect the waves of hate to continue.

[hilzoy]

I guess they must have missed my 'Hatred is a Poison' post.

[Marty]

You have said it better then I could, so thanks for putting my sentiments into the right words.

[McDuff]

Have you also taken the time to wish for a pony, Hilzoy?

[cleek]

what did all those gasbags have to say about the Hassan family ? lemme guess... not a f'in thing.

We were thinking these Americans want us to be safe," Hassan, 35, said through a translator.

Hassan, interviewed Tuesday by a Knight Ridder correspondent at the Mobile Army Surgical Hospital near Najaf, said 11 members of his family were killed in the incident — his daughters, aged 2 and 5, his son, 3, his parents, two older brothers, their wives and two nieces, ages 12 and 15. His wife, Lamea, who is nine-months pregnant, said she saw her children die.

"I saw the heads of my two little girls come off," said Lamea Hassan, 36. "My girls — I watched their heads come off their bodies. My son is dead."

Culture Of Life, my ass.

[felixrayman]

I believe that every adult, including Terri Schiavo, has the right to decide for him- or herself whether to accept or refuse medical treatment

So do I. Terri Schiavo did not clearly make her wishes known - at least not clearly enough to warrant risking a mistake, in my opinion. If she had made a living will detailing her wishes about such matters, we would be talking about the Michael Jackson trial or the horror of steroids in baseball instead.

[rilkefan]

"we would be talking about the Michael Jackson trial or the horror of steroids in baseball instead."

[humorous reply suppressed out of respect for this sad moment]

[hilzoy]

McDuff: I have a whole herd of imaginary ponies roaming around nibbling grasss on my imaginary mountain, so of course I wished for another. And in yet another sign of mental derangement, I just sent David Brooks a short, tactful email disputing his claim that liberals have not been making moral arguments about this case. Gag. I mean, doesn't he read us?

[felixrayman]

Check this out, via Mr. Drum:

Hours after a judge ordered that Terri Schiavo wasn't to be removed from her hospice, a team of Florida law enforcement agents were en route to seize her and have her feeding tube reinserted — but they stopped short when local police told them they would enforce the judge's order, The Miami Herald has learned.

[tony g]

nicely said and supported.

tg

[Gromit]

what did all those gasbags have to say about the Hassan family ? lemme guess... not a f'in thing.

I just got finished reading a fairly lengthy comment over at RedState explaining that stuff like this falls under the rubric of "Just War", while force-feeding a person with no cerebral cortex and no hope of magically re-growing one and who previously expressed a desire not to be maintained in such a state falls under the rubric of "Culture of Life".

I'm sure it all makes perfect sense to a person who is completely comfortable with cognitive dissonance. To me it sounds an awful lot like "when our government wants its way in foreign affairs, the deaths of those who manifestly want life are justified, but when an individual wants death with dignity or for her body to be held inviolate, it means those of us who would not interfere are out to slake our thirst on the blood of the innocent, the elderly, and the infirm."

Oh, and before my wife switched his show off in disgust, Tucker Carlson was expressing his sincere bafflement at the notion that anyone would put any value on the previously expressed wishes of a person who is presently physiologically incapable of forming opinions as to her own care. As if the man has never considered the moral basis of "final wishes" that undergirds every last will and testament. And he gets a TV show why, exactly? What is it, exactly, that allows such wholly nonsensical reasoning to pass through an otherwise educated mind unmolested?

Oh, and the more I read folks of apparently sincere good will opining, in effect, that Terri Schiavo's body is the state's to invade against her own expressed wishes, the more I think about the person who recently asked why it usually seems to be women who are held up as causes celebres in these withdrawal of care cases. Perhaps there is something to the notion that some in our culture view women's bodies as public property, as not subject to personal autonomy. And while no conceivable end would ever counterbalance the gross abuse of power taking place in congress of late, perhaps this will serve as a warning to all those who might have been growing complacent about the potential for state intrusions into the realm of personal medical decisions.

Anyway, thanks for the post, Hilzoy. I've been feeling the very same disgust and frustration at these sorts of rhetorical abuses.

[Jesurgislac]

Oh, Hilzoy, we are the "creatures better not named".

The ugliest thing I read about this was in a terribly Christian blog:

Her death is so close, finally, that Michael can taste it and the hungry, hungry jaws of the Culture of Death are opening and closing and beginning to salivate. Soon, will begin a wicked, wicked dance of joy among creatures better not named.

Actually, what's worse: I do not object so much to being demonized and railed about. It's turned into a political cat-fight, and heaven knows I've been guilty of railing about people who I think have taken the wrong side.

What's vile is the demonization of Michael Schiavo, ranging from comments like the above, to claims that he is murdering his wife, to death threats.

Agree with him or not: he seems to have tried to tale the best possible care of his wife, according to her wishes, over nearly fifteen years. So far from "murdering his wife", he turned the decision over to the Florida courts, presumably hoping that if the decision were made by an independent body examining the evidence, the Schlinders could accept it.

[The Heretik]

NO retreat, no surrender.

[blogbudsman]

Sorry about the double track back. I updated, that may have triggered the second entry. Thanks again, hilzoy, I truly strive to weigh my own opinions. Your posts are always a welcome hand hold on the ledges of truth.

[Francis]

" Terri Schiavo did not clearly make her wishes known "

so, the fact that a florida court, following a duly constituted hearing, found otherwise BY CLEAR AND CONVINCING EVIDENCE, means nothing to you?

Since florida courts are not to be trusted, can Al Gore get a federal court hearing on the proper procedure for counting votes?

just curious, felixrayman, are you challenging the substance of the court's ruling, the nature of the evidence on which the court relied, or the process?

[rilkefan]

Francis, no need to holler. People get to personally disagree even with well-litigated outcomes. Felix wants 100% certainty established in this sort of case.

[Justin Slotman]

Jes, I was curious and tracked down that blog you quoted from. You did good over there.

[rilkefan]

Jes, I second Justin. Excellent patient comments.

[felixrayman]

just curious, felixrayman, are you challenging the substance of the court's ruling, the nature of the evidence on which the court relied, or the process?

The process. I don't think the level of evidence required is sufficient given the irrevocability of putting someone to death. I oppose capital punishment on the same grounds (among others). Even after a trial and multiple appeals, the possibility of killing an innocent person outweighs the other factors in my opinion.

As you pointed out with your remark about Gore, courts are not infallible.

[Francis]

felixrayman: but there's a huge difference between imposing the death penalty and attempting to discern the will of a non-responsive individual.

Yes, in both cases the decision is irreversible. But one is punishment and the other is an expression of personal liberty.

I think the Cruzan decision, which imposes the c&c evidentiary standard, strikes the appropriate balance. There is always the concern, as has been so vocally expressed in other blog threads, that the testimony of family members will be self-serving. On the other, it would be a radical extension of the law for a court, as opposed to a legislature, to require that every person's medical directives be expressed in writing.

I respect the fact that you disagree with the sufficiency of the evidence. But fundamentally that is a legislative issue, not a judicial one. And I note that the florida legislature has rejected a bill which would, if i understand the bill correctly, essentially require all medical directives to be in writing. Legislators are simply unwilling to impose that obligation on their citizens.

Even in the presence of written directives, there is always the possibility of family dissension and the need for interpretation of the directive from secondary sources. You seem to believe that the default position should be "choose life". But that is the standard which exists today; the c&c evidentiary standard is a high hurdle to overcome.

Courts exist to resolve disputes. The dispute over Terri could not be settled, mediated or negotiated to an amicable resolution; the court had to pick a side. It did, and that, for me, is the end of the matter.

[Schiavo Saver]

Saving Schiavo is as easy as N. R. A.

Put a loaded gun in her hands and tell the world that Michael Schiavo is trying to deny Terri her second amendment right to bear arms by allowing her to die. Put a bumper sticker on Terri's head that says, ''You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.'' The invincible gun lobby, with its indisputable record of success at keeping high school kids and criminals armed, will mobilize like the seventh fleet. They'll keep her alive if they have to manually pump her heart and shove broccoli down her throat.

[John Thullen]

I've been reading some of the blogosphere outside Obsidian Wings about the Schiavo tragedy, including some Republican sites like Redstate, along with those places you have cited, Hilzoy.

My conclusion is this: I believe Felixrayman is correct in his judgement about Terry Schiavo. But I will go further.

This goes beyond Terry Schiavo in the Limbaugh-Delay-Trevino-Randall Terry mind. Something very big is coming. Rhetoric like we are hearing and reading is going to be followed by 9/11-like consequences. The chatter is ominous. Consider this a warning memo.

I believe liberals should use armed force to save Terry Schiavo's life. Otherwise, our judicial system, our medical safety-net programs, perhaps even the lives of those (Democrats and Republicans) who have participated in this case on the side of letting Terry Schiavo die are in grave danger.

By saving Terry Schiavo, we may save ourselves from what is coming.

The clowns -- they aren't funny any more.

[Anarch]

Jes, I second Justin. Excellent patient comments.

Wow. Likewise.

[bob mcmanus]

Sure glad it is only Randall Terry

Hal Turner

Richard Meywes

But at least Jeb Bush is keeping things calm:

Miami Herald(subscriber)
"BY CAROL MARBIN MILLER

[email protected]

Hours after a judge ordered that Terri Schiavo was not to be removed from her hospice, a team of state agents were en route to seize her and have her feeding tube reinserted -- but they stopped short when local police told them they would enforce the judge's order, The Herald has learned.

Agents of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement told police in Pinellas Park, the small town where Schiavo lies at Hospice Woodside, on Thursday that they were on the way to take her to a hospital to resume her feeding.

For a brief period, local police, who have officers at the hospice to keep protesters out, prepared for what sources called ``a showdown.''"
....
Ok, the rhetoric of the right is blatantly violent, and there are overt preparations for violence. Am I supposed to respect my opponent's religious beliefs, until I get shot? Or can I even say bad things about them first?

[bob mcmanus]

Ok, and in a note of pre-emption, please cite three leading Republicans, like GW, or Jeb, or DeLay who have said:

"Everybody calm down and go home. We don't want this getting out of control and someone getting hurt."

Find me two.

[sidereal]

"By saving Terry Schiavo, we may save ourselves from what is coming."

'Saving' Schiavo, John? By your choice of terminology, you betray the fact that your understanding of the matter is at odds with the facts.

I suspect a large degree of paternalism. If Schiavo was a man, who had made his wishes clear to his wife, that if grievously and irreparably wounded and forced to live on machines forever, that he be allowed to pass on naturally, that no one would care. But because she is a woman, we give her less capability to make that decision. She must be 'saved'.

How many millions of people have made that decision? To be let alone when it's their time to go? To not fight scrabbling with tooth and nail on the precipice of death, pumping nutrients and air into their bodies to keep the machine rolling for another day? Are we now to say that that is no longer an acceptable choice? That the 'Culture of Life at all Costs' will wipe out that dignity for the sake of their own fear of mortality?

Why?

[bob mcmanus]

Schiavo may have a justification for wanting to kill his wife. He may also be motivated by money. Suggesting that people are sometimes motivated by money and not principle should be rather unshocking on this site.
Do you have evidence that if Reynolds had his wife killed he would get a large sum of money from her injury settlement? Do you have evidence that Reynolds’ wife has had broken bones of the type typical of physical abuse? Were there allegations that Reynolds attempted to induce diabetic coma with insulin?
If not, there might be some differences in the two cases that are worth examining. Saying “I don’t know and neither do you” isn’t the same as looking at the evidence available. I don’t know. The evidence is tricky. The justifications are even trickier. But I am certain that the current available evidence that Schiavo is attempting to effectively murder is wife is stronger than the evidence that Reynolds is attempting to murder his.

Sebastian CT March 23,2005

Guardian ad litem

December 1 2003

"Of Michael Schiavo, there is the incorrect perception that he has refused to relinquish his guardianship because of financial interests, and more recently, because of allegations that he actually abused Theresa and seeks to hide this. There is no evidence in the record to substantiate any of these perceptions or allegations."

Now before accusations of spousal abuse and murder-for-profit were thrown around, one would assume that the best available material would have already been researched. So I am at a loss.
.....
left-side bloggers, to be unnamed on this blog with a mixed readership, have received death threats and warnings, and have been advised to buy a gun

[Jackmormon]

John Thullen,

What exactly are you warning us about? I know some crazies have talked about an armed intervention (aka kidnapping Shiavo from her hospice), and that there are a number of people who've tried to break in to "bring her water," but what greater threat are you preparing us for?

[Gromit]

Bob, I'm a little confused as to attribution in your last post. Could you clarify?

[hilzoy]

Since I just looked up the comment, I'll spare Bob M. the trouble: he's referring to a comment made by Sebastian H. here. Sebastian claims that others object to his comment because they are overlooking the kill/murder distinction. I think they object because they think he's overlooking the killing/allowing someone to decline treatment that would save their lives distinction; the one that allows us to say, for instance, that when a doctor does not forcibly transfuse a Jehovah's Witness, she is not killing her patient.

[bob mcmanus]

I should have linked.

I actually object more strongly to the attribution of possible motives to Michael Schiavo long since discarded as without substance by objective observers.

I did not comment on that thread, which got out of hand in terms of jokes about Reynolds etc. I did not approve of the tone in a situation approaching violence. The left is often so unserious and oblivious.

[John Thullen]

Sidereal: What I am saying is that the rhetoric of some elements of the Right, including those linked to by Hilzoy, and including those politicians Bob McManus has noticed are NOT calling for calm, is the laying down of nothing less than a blood libel.

I am saying, Jackmoron, that I am a coward. I'm backing down. Let the blood-libelers decide Terry Schiavo's life. I take them literally. I'm going to blend in and try not to be noticed in my every day activities. The stain is upon me.

I am saying that, despite my cowardice, I'm calling out the "blood-libelers". I'm sick of rhetoric. Let's get to it. When I'm accused of murder, I expect at the very least some commensurate punishment.

The suspense is killing me.

To be clear, Felixrayman's position is honorable, I speak not of him.

I'm falling into Biblical cadences. The End must be near.