Ann Coulter: Putting the "A**" in Christmas

Via Wonkette:

I know even most conservatives consider her a hack, but at a certain point the entire species really needs to distance itself from this freak. On Ann Coulter's website:

To The People Of Islam:
Just think: If we'd invaded your countries, killed your leaders and converted you to Christianity YOU'D ALL BE OPENING CHRISTMAS PRESENTS RIGHT ABOUT NOW!
Merry Christmas

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To Ann Coulter,
Just Think: If morons like you stopped perpetuating the notion that Christians are hell-bent on converting Muslims, perhaps a lot fewer of them could be convinced to fly planes into buildings.

Frickin' idjit.

Comments

[Jadegold]

I know even most conservatives consider her a hack,

How do you know this, Edward?

Seems she's tight with the GOP Party Leadership

[Edward]

How do you know this, Edward?

Perhaps I should have qualified that better. Often when citing her as a voice of the Right, commenters on blogs insist they don't value her rantings. As you point out though, Jadegold, that is a distinction they don't share with the GOP leadership.

[Stan LS]

If morons like you stopped perpetuating the notion that Christians are hell-bent on converting Muslims, perhaps a lot fewer of them could be convinced to fly planes into buildings.

Oh, please! Surely it's because of Ann Coulter that an article in a Saudi government daily accused the U.S. Army of harvesting the organs of Iraqis and selling them.

Has to be! Why else would they hate us?

[Edward]

Which do you think is more likely to convince an otherwise rational young Saudi that the West represents a threat to him and his family, Stan? An article in a newspaper he knows is run by the very oppressive regime he hates (really, you think he trusts that paper?) or the words of an American author who appears regularly on the bestsellers list and he knows is protected by the First Amendment (i.e., she can speak her true mind and is not merely a mouthpiece for the government).

Really, who is more likely to convince a thinking young Saudi that the West is a danger to him?

[Stan LS]

I think Coulter's voice is a fine display of democracy/freedom of speech at work.

Do you really want to play that game with that question Edward? Should we then be convinced by the hero like
status of Osama that arabs are terrorist sympathizers? Should the palestinian support for the suicide bombers tell us something about them? What about the arab silence regarding Darfur? Is it all Coulter's doing? Is it likely to convince a "thinking young" American to reach a certain conclusion regarding Islam?

[Edward]

I think Coulter's voice is a fine display of democracy/freedom of speech at work.

Change "People of Islam" to "People of Israel" Stan and tell if you'd still think that.

Is it likely to convince a "thinking young" American to reach a certain conclusion regarding Islam?

I'd hope a thinking young American could see that any smaller nation whose population truly believes that a popular American author wants to convert them via the barrel of a gun to Christianity considers their very way of life at risk.

Clearly Coulter is not singly responsible for the conditions that have led many Muslims to violence, but her cavalier attitude toward how serious a threat many Muslims consider Crusader-esque rhetoric reveals a degree of idiocy I thought beneath even her.

[Stan LS]

Change "People of Islam" to "People of Israel" Stan and tell if you'd still think that.

No biggie. She made a bad joke, and as a non Christian I don't feel threatened by it. Nor do I feel threatened by public displays of the nativity scene or people wishing me a merry Xmas, for that matter.

I'd hope a thinking young American could see that any smaller nation whose population truly believes that a popular American author

Sure. But that's all she is. An author. Nor does she work for a gov't controlled media.

[Edward]

No biggie. She made a bad joke, and as a non Christian I don't feel threatened by it.

I'd like to take your word for that, but based on past comments feel I need to ask one more time what your response would be to anyone who wrote that Israel should be invaded, have its leaders killed, and its population forcibly converted to Christianity. Even if they insisted it was all in good fun.

[Stan LS]

ask one more time what your response would be to anyone who wrote that Israel should be invaded, have its leaders killed, and its population forcibly converted to Christianity.

Let's make the analogy accurate then. If Israelis were guilty of attacking US interests abroad, its leaders were constantly issuing threats, fatwas, finance jihads abroad, etc, and then finally 19 Israeli hijackers crashed planes on 9/11 killing over 3,000 americans in the process... Well, yea, I could understand her anger. Maybe even in the same way you are attempting to "understand" the "rational young Saudi" - Which do you think is more likely to convince an otherwise rational young Saudi that the West represents a threat to him and his family, Stan?

Why is it so easy for you to rationalize/relate to a "young rational Saudi" and not a young (or not so young) rational American? And if her statement makes her irrational in your eyes, then why does the "young rational Saudi" is still rational if his response is based on some quote by an American author?

[Phil]

. . . her cavalier attitude toward how serious a threat many Muslims consider Crusader-esque rhetoric reveals a degree of idiocy I thought beneath even her.

That was your first mistake. There is no statement so stupid that Coulter would hesitate to make it. (And just so I make sure I'm not lambasted by The Usual Suspects for partisanism, the same is true for . . . whatsisname . . . the cartoonist . . . Rall! Ted Rall.)

[carpeicthus]

Stan, you know well that there is a huge difference between what someone has a right to say under the first amendment and what speech should be funded by major networks and major political organizations. For example, I think Michael Moore is a jerk and I don't like the way this fairweather friend is insinuating himself in the political process, but the common argument made that he is the ideological equivalent of Coulter, who routinely makes statements like this and terrorists-are-awesome-as-long-as-they're-white-and-kill-liberals, seems calculatedly moronic.

[carpeicthus]

And no, I'm not attributing that argument to you, just noting one way that she's relevant to political debate in ways that have nothing to do with the first amendment.

[carpeicthus]

Yes, Rall is probably a fair equivalent. I haven't read about him cheering on people to kill conservatives, but I'd buy that he would. It pisses me off every time he's on national television, were that to ever happen.

[heet]

Stan, Stan, Stan... You might want to go back and look at what she actually said before conjuring up a moral equivalence argument. "To the people of Islam:" she ranted... The analogy should have read "To the people of Jewery etc..."

Now, last time I checked, it wasn't Islam that attacked the US, it was some nutbars from Egypt and SA. In fact, how do you think her little tirade plays with allies like, oh I don't know, Turkey? Pakistan?

[cleek]

No biggie. She made a bad joke

this was no one time thing; her entire career is based on such statements.

[smlook]

Last time I checked... the U.S. has not been attacked by Israel. Last time I checked Jews nor Christians have been hacking people heads off...

heet,

Muslim's all over the world cheered after 9/11.

Her comments are appropriate. If the Islamic world from Indonesia to Egypt would pull it's collective head out of its butt and clean house we would all be better off.

Those Islamic nutballs you classify so neatly unfortunately have killed Russian school kids, Americans, Spanish, Austalians... the list goes on. And your innocent little Muslims that are getting picked on have plotted to kill more, but have been foiled.

[Stan LS]

Now, last time I checked, it wasn't Islam that attacked the US, it was some nutbars from Egypt and SA.

Who made you spokesman for Islam?

In fact, how do you think her little tirade plays with allies like, oh I don't know, Turkey? Pakistan?

You want our country to become Ashkkkroft's Amerikkka and suppress free speech?

[Jadegold]

Jadegold's encounters with the famous and near-famous: Ten years ago, Ann Coulter hit on me at the bar on the Capitol Grille. She is a good deal more attractive on TV than in person.

[heet]

Stan and smlook --

How is it you can lump the 9/11 whackos with all of Islam? It is simple-minded and dumb, plain and simple. You can spin your points all you like but when you condemn a whole religion b/c of the radicals, you piss on all religion. McVeigh was a radical religious nut but I don't want to convert all Christians to atheism. How's that for an analogy? Without a doubt there is a problem with Islam and the ME but Ann's comments (and your half-hearted defenses) miss the point completely and are counter-productive.

Ann is playing to the mouth-breathing freakos who hate everything and everyone. Sure, she can say what she wants but that doesn't mean I have to respect her opinion. Furthermore, I suppose her comments are useful because I can identify people to steer clear of by noting who agrees with her.

[Jadegold]

Last time I checked... the U.S. has not been attacked by Israel.

USS LIBERTY? Jonathan Pollard? Rachel Corrie?

You should check more thoroughly, Smlook.

[Jesurgislac]

Stan, if you're willing to lump the terrorists who attacked the US on September 11 with all of Islam, and thus accuse all of Islam of attacking the US, are you willing to lump the torturers who assaulted Afghans, Iraqis, and suspects of other nationalitieis with all of Christianity? It's the same logic. Shall we then say that all Christians are torturers of Muslims? That's your logic.

[smlook]

Jadegold,

What an absurd claim! But, I will play your little game.

When Bin Laden and the other Islamic fascists release any kind of official apology for all their terrorists acts, then maybe we can have a meaningful discussion. When they claim that it was a case of mistaken identity and the 9/11 hijackers mistook the Twin towers for something else and the Cole and the embassies and so on then maybe we can have a meaningful discussion. When Bin Laden holds 3 official investigations about how these terrorists acts were all mistaken... oh why bother...

When you can prove that Corrie was held down in front of the bulldozer by the IDF, then maybe you will have a point. And France spies on us as much as anyone. Should we bomb 'em? Please say yes.

What a nice imaginary world you have created for yourself? Ha Ha!

Jesurgislac,

Were are the videos of Christians dancing in the streets at the torture. Were are the Christian heads of states making racist comments? The moderate moslem is not completely silent. I've heard some, but other than the brave Iraqis and Afghanis who are subject to suicide attacks they ain't really fightin' for the right to be heard either.

Let's not be ridiculous here. Modern day terrorism is associated with Moslems because they commit terrorist acts. Moslems who don't like that need to work hard to change it like they are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Just like we need to work hard to kill Islamic terrorists. If moderate moslems were working as hard at ridding the world of Islamic terrorists as the U.S. this problem would be just a page in the history books.

[Anarch]

Modern day terrorism is associated with Moslems because they commit terrorist acts.

If by "terrorism" you exclude state-sponsored actions, your statement isn't completely inaccurate. Although to be clear: first, you mean that the people committing terrorist acts are Muslims, not -- as you have in fact said -- that Muslims are terrorists; and second, the inventors of suicide bombing (the Tamil Tigers) might have something to say about that.

However, if not...

[Stan LS]

heet,

How is it you can lump the 9/11 whackos with all of Islam? It is simple-minded and dumb, plain and simple

This is a respond to what? Quote me.

Sure, she can say what she wants but that doesn't mean I have to respect her opinion.

Very good. You've managed to miss the whole point of this thread. Carry on.

Jadegold,

USS LIBERTY? Jonathan Pollard? Rachel Corrie?

Liberty was an accident. Jonathan Pollard was a spy (you going to name a country which doesn't have spies?), Rachel Corrie was an accident. Funny how you try to imply that her death was an "attack" on U.S. Do I really need to pull out the photo of her ripping up a US flag to a crowd of Palestinians? Very, very lame of you to attempt to use her like that.

[Stan LS]

Stan, if you're willing to lump the terrorists who attacked the US on September 11 with all of Islam, and thus accuse all of Islam of attacking the US, are you willing to lump the torturers who assaulted Afghans, Iraqis, and suspects of other nationalitieis with all of Christianity?

I suggest you re read my posts. You've missed the point of my conversation with Edward. Nice knee jerking, though.

[felixrayman]

I suggest you re read my posts

I suggest you re read your posts also.

[CaseyL]

Coulter is a frenetic nutbar whom no one would pay attention to if she weren't a leggy blonde. How someone with all the capacity for rational thought of an Afghan hound on crack managed to get a law degree is a mystery - but then, Phyllis Schlafly (the Ann Coulter of the early '60s) has one, too.

Trying to parse her blather into something meaningful is a waste of time. She's like an 8 year old who just discovered dirty words.

If you must defend the bigoted vaporings of a dumb blonde, stick with David Duke. At least he's sincere, not an attention-whore.

Oh, and smlook? What branch of Islam did Timothy McVeigh belong to? Or Eric Rudolph? Or the Aryan Nation?

[Jesurgislac]

Stan LS: I suggest you re read my posts. You've missed the point of my conversation with Edward.

I did. And I haven't. I got the point you're making. It may not be what you meant, but it's certainly what you said.

Smlook: I don't think I'm going to respond to this any more.

[Phil]

Who made you spokesman for Islam?

Well, now, that leads to an important question, doesn't it? Who is the spokesman for Islam? Who's the Islamic, you know, Pope, or equivalent? Answer that question and you get an idea of why you're making the wrong arguments.

[Stan LS]

felixray, jesu,

Re read my exchange with Edward at the top and tell me what you think its about?

[Stan LS]

Jesu,

Stan, if you're willing to lump the terrorists who attacked the US on September 11 with all of Islam, and thus accuse all of Islam of attacking the US

Ofcourse that's an interesting question. Big "if", though. Will you quote the posts you are referring to in the leading question above?

[Nikki]

Why won't you address the Timothy McVeigh comparisons?

[Jadegold]

Liberty was an accident.

Impossible. Please research the issue before issuing erroneous excuses.

Jonathan Pollard was a spy (you going to name a country which doesn't have spies?)

A spy who irreparably damaged US national security. Again, please do some research before asserting 'everyone does it.'

Rachel Corrie was an accident. Funny how you try to imply that her death was an "attack" on U.S. Do I really need to pull out the photo of her ripping up a US flag to a crowd of Palestinians?

So...you're saying she deserved to be killed?

[Stan LS]

Phil,

Who is the spokesman for Islam?

It's most likely not the person I was replying to.

[Stan LS]

Nikki,

Why won't you address the Timothy McVeigh comparisons?

I am assuming you are asking me, but I'll point out that the question was posed to "smlook".

[Stan LS]

Impossible. Please research the issue before issuing erroneous excuses.

There has been a number of congressional investigations, no? But I'll bite. What was the motive, then?

[Stan LS]

A spy who irreparably damaged US national security. Again, please do some research before asserting 'everyone does it.'

I see that you haven't named a country that does not have spies. By the way, what was the information that he provided to Israelis about? I am curious.

[Stan LS]

jade,

Sorry for replying with 3 posts to your 1. I am still before my first cup of coffee.

So...you're saying she deserved to be killed?

Am I? Quote me or apologize for your vile allegations.

[Jadegold]

There has been a number of congressional investigations, no? But I'll bite. What was the motive, then?

Motive is unimportant. What is important is that a US Naval vessel was attacked--in daylight and in clear weather--by an erstwhile ally. As for your claims of Congressional inquiries, I can furnish you with the assertions of CNOs, assorted Navy leaders, at least 1 CIA director, at least 1 SECDEF, assorted underSECDEFs, at least 1 NSA director, etc. who state the attack on the LIBERTY was no accident. There are also assertions from former Israeli military and intelligence officers who claim it was no accident.

Also, could you point me to a Congressional investigation of the LIBERTY, please?

You are likely unfamiliar with the facts of the attack. Israeli MTBs approached within 50 feet of the LIBERTY; from that range one could easily read the name of the vessel and see her ensign. Israeli aircraft made at least 3 low speed strafing runs over the ship.

[Slartibartfast]

I feel it's safe to say that I haven't read more than a few words by Ann Coulter since she left/was ejected from NR. I don't exactly equate her to Rall, because he only wishes he was that smart. I do think she's roughly equivalent to James Carville, although (perhaps deliberately) less socially acceptable. But finding a counterpart on the Left doesn't exactly get us anywhere, does it? What Ms. Coulter engages in is roughly the opposite of what we're attempting to engage in here at OW, so close examination of it only makes it necessary that we all go take a bath.

My wife got me her latest book for Christmas; can't recall the title right off but it features the author in what appears to be a leather vest a few sizes too large. It's right after the Baroque Cycle on the reading list, so it'll be a while. I don't expect to like it, but maybe I'll attempt to review it if anyone's interested. I'm not sure how much good that'd do, because it's not exactly a serious attempt at...well, at anything other than Setting Up Mighty Strawmen And Giving Them A Good Thwacking. From what I've heard, anyway.

OT: So far, Quicksilver is better than I had any right to expect. The Baroque Cycle, too, was a Christmas present, and much more highly appreciated than the Coulter book. The wife is going through roughly the same phase I was in a few years ago, and she thinks I'm right there with her.

[heet]

StanLS---
How is it you can lump the 9/11 whackos with all of Islam? It is simple-minded and dumb, plain and simple

This is a respond to what? Quote me.
--

You are correct, you did not specifically say that. Just what are you arguing upthread? If you are defending Ann it is being done in the most elliptical way possible.

StanLS--
Sure, she can say what she wants but that doesn't mean I have to respect her opinion.

Very good. You've managed to miss the whole point of this thread. Carry on.
--
Well, you mentioned you can "understand her anger" and I am saying "I don't respect her depraved ramblings." That was my point, what's yours?

[Jadegold]

By the way, what was the information that he provided to Israelis about? I am curious.

What the general public knows is that Pollard furnished US contingency plans in the event of a nuclear exchange. Pollard also passed on the names of various Eastern bloc agents we had (remember this was during the Cold War) as well as`evidence we had tapped into Soviet electronic communications.

Now, there is a whole bill of particulars the public doesn't know of because of its national security sensitivity.

[Jadegold]

Am I? Quote me or apologize for your vile allegations

Here's your quote again: Rachel Corrie was an accident. Funny how you try to imply that her death was an "attack" on U.S. Do I really need to pull out the photo of her ripping up a US flag to a crowd of Palestinians? Very, very lame of you to attempt to use her like that.

Rachel Corrie was run over by a bulldozer. Bulldozers are relatively slow-moving pieces of heavy machinery. In addition, the operator of the bulldozer knew there were protestors in his immediate vicinity. At the very least, there was a reckless and callous disregard for her safety.

Regardless of her politics or views, Ms. Corrie was an American citizen. By alluding to some story about ripping up a US flag (in front of those pesky Palestinians), you're implying somehow Ms. Corrie deserved her fate.

[Stan LS]

Motive is unimportant.

It's not? I thought motives were used to establish things like... You know... Future threats, maybe? How did USS liberty come up anyway? By the way:

On June 8, 1967, Navy Lt. Maurice Bennett was part of the National Security Agency's contingent aboard the Liberty, just 12 miles off the Egyptian-Sinai coast, near where the Israeli air force had just wiped out Nasser's air force the following morning.

Lt. Bennett devoted himself to saving lives and to help keep the ship from sinking, for which he was awarded a Purple Heart and the Silver Star.

Bennett is now a retired Navy commander. Last June 3, 2003, he wrote to Judge Cristol, author of perhaps the definitive book on this issue, "The Liberty Incident."

Cmdr. Bennett wrote:

"From the viewpoint of one who was on board the Liberty at the time of the attack, your account leaves little doubt that the attack was the result of a series of confused decisions, made in a war setting. Error seems to compound error both on the part of the Israelis and the U.S. Perhaps your account will lay to rest the many conspiracy theories which have plagued us all these last 30 off years."

[Stan LS]

heet,

Re read the whole exchange and what I was responding to.

[Stan LS]

Jade,

What the general public knows is that Pollard furnished US contingency plans in the event of a nuclear exchange. Pollard also passed on the names of various Eastern bloc agents we had

Cite?

[Stan LS]

Rachel Corrie was run over by a bulldozer. Bulldozers are relatively slow-moving pieces of heavy machinery.

They are? So you are telling me that an ultra quiet bulldozer didn't chase her down and run her over?

At the very least, there was a reckless and callous disregard for her safety.

On her part. When I go to my mechanic, there's a big sign telling me that I can't go beyond a certain point due to insurance reasons. Now, the bulldozers that Israelis use are more like tanks - they are huge, have armor all around and limited visibility.

Regardless of her politics or views, Ms. Corrie was an American citizen. By alluding to some story about ripping up a US flag (in front of those pesky Palestinians), you're implying somehow Ms. Corrie deserved her fate.

Weak. You classified her death as an attack by Israel on US. Did you not? You still haven't shown me implying that she deserved her fate (by the way, it's not "some story", there's a photo. Nice try). I just found it ironic that you decided to use her as an example of an attack on US, that's all.

[Edward]

Yikes.

OK, my bad for not setting a clearer discussion point here. I think Stan is right to ask that we return to the original conversation (and a few folks here should know my partner is Muslim and a few of you are really close to getting banned...carelessly qualified statements like "Those Islamic nutballs" will get you banned, so please stop generalizing so thoughtlessly).

The question as Stan and I began to explore it is: is Coulter right to even joke about converting Muslims to Christianity, given how much she hates (apparently all) Muslims for what some of them did on 9/11? I say she's not. Stans feels it's her 1st Amendment right (but I think that's more because he's not threatened by her statements). I think she's stepped over the line, and her statement is inflammatory...purposely, irresponsibly prodding Muslims on an issue where many of them are very sensitive (the Crusades being much clearer in many of their memories than ours).

The question of whether all Muslims are responsible for 9/11 has been debated to death...anyone wishing to still argue that point should go elsewhere.

[Jadegold]

WorldNetDaily? How special.

Here's an account from a LIBERTY survivor:

Initially we of the ship's crew were concerned about being relatively close to a shooting war, even though our position put us always more than 12-1/2 miles from shore, clearly in international waters and well away from any action. We had asked for a destroyer escort, but this request was rejected by the Sixth Fleet Commander who said that we did not need protection because we were on a peaceful mission in international waters. In any case, he said, in the unlikely event of an accidental attack, Sixth Fleet aircraft could be overhead in a few minutes.

By the time we arrived, however, Israel had destroyed nearly every aircraft belonging to any of her enemies. Now they were only mopping up, chasing the retreating Arab armies back across the desert. There seemed little reason for further concern.

We were assigned to patrol a dog-leg-shaped track perhaps 100 miles long near the Egyptian-owned Gaza Strip, roughly from Rafah to Port Said. We were to steam at our slowest possible speed, about five miles per hour.

Initially we had some concern for our safety, because the Arab countries were blaming the U.S. for the war. Many had broken diplomatic relations with America and some were claiming that the attacks on their airfields had been by American aircraft from the U.S. Sixth Fleet.

If we had any fears for our safety, however, these quickly vanished. Much of this coast area had been captured by Israel only hours before our arrival. Israel was our friend. Israeli aircraft had circled us throughout the night (identified by their radar characteristics), and now, with daylight, they came closer and we could see the Star of David markings. Often they came so close that we could see the pilots in their cockpits and exchanged friendly waves.

I was the officer-of-the-deck on the bridge during this period, and following each visit our leading intercept supervisor, Chief Melvin Smith, would come up to the bridge and ask if I had seen the aircraft's markings to confirm his own electronic observations: "Not to worry," he would say, "Each time they circle we can hear the pilot telling his headquarters that we are an American ship."

That was comforting to everyone on the bridge. Yet, taking no chances, I ordered the quartermaster to haul up a new flag, with bright and clear colors, and instructed signalmen and lookouts to assure that the flag never wrapped around the lines or mast making it difficult to see even for a few seconds. I was pleased to see that we had a steady breeze across the deck, always more than enough to hold the flag out so that it could be seen clearly by the Israeli pilots.

--------------------------------------------
During the morning and early afternoon of June 8, these several technicians sat with our regular radio intercept operators, searching the radio spectrum, looking for Russian language broadcasts from within Egypt. Meanwhile, Israeli aircraft continued to circle us about every 40 minutes, a total of seven visits during daylight. These airplanes circled our ship 13 times. And on every occasion Chief Smith came back up to the bridge to tell me that he had identified them; they were Israeli, they knew we were friendly, and they had so informed their headquarters.

[Slartibartfast]

What do you mean by "right", Edward? Are you asking whether she really means it? Or if she's accurately representing public opinion? Or if she's got the right to say that? Or something else?

I'd hope she doesn't mean it, and this is just more polemicism from the nonstop polemic mill. I'd also hope she's accurately representing the views of an extremely tiny minority. But I'm going to add that she's got every bit as much right to say what she says as Michael Moore and Ted Rall do. And the rest of us have the right to verbally excoriate her if we disagree.

[Edward]

What do you mean by "right", Edward?

In the court of public opinion, has she stepped over the line? I'm not asking that she be arrested, dragged behind the police station, tied to a chair, have her eyeballs propped open, and forced to watch video of Michael Moore taking a shower for 36 hours nonstop...

What I'm really asking is are there folks who will defend her statement.

[Stan LS]

Edward,

Thank you!

Stans feels it's her 1st Amendment right (but I think that's more because he's not threatened by her statements).

But there are plenty people I don't agree with and I am not saying they should be suppressed. In any case, my main point was to point out the ease with which you gave consideration to a "thinking young Saudi" and not her.

[Slartibartfast]

and forced to watch video of Michael Moore taking a shower for 36 hours nonstop...

Maybe she likes them...is husky the correct term?

[Stan LS]

Edward,

What I'm really asking is are there folks who will defend her statement.

Coulter has always been provacative. Everybody knows it. I highly doubt there's any actual threat in her statement.

[Slartibartfast]

In the court of public opinion, has she stepped over the line?

Of course. Stepping over the line is job one. Lots of people a very good living from this. Of course, when such people step so far over the line that no one will employ them any longer, justice is then served.

Coulter's taken at least one step in that direction, as has Rall.

[Edward]

In any case, my main point was to point out the ease with which you gave consideration to a "thinking young Saudi" and not her.

Chronology is important here. I'm giving consideration to the thinking young Saudi BEFORE he's willing to consider imposing his way of life onto others. Terrorists are not born, they are made. Coulter has crossed that line, in my opinion. She's making a joke (supposedly) about something that many Muslims fear is really behind our efforts.

No matter how you look at it, her efforts are not helping, and they are highly insulting.

[Jadegold]

Re Coulter and Rall: I've yet to see Rall do or say anything as offensive as Coulter. And--one must remember--Rall is a cartoonist; his business is about satire. OTOH, Coulter is considered to be a journalist, pundit, and legal scholar. Moreover, as I noted earlier, Coulter seems to enjoy close relationships with the GOP's senior leadership, including Dick Cheney.

Stan LS: Re Jonathan Pollard. BBC Thumbnail. You also might wish to familiarize yourself with the RASIN manuals.

[Edward]

I agree with Jadegold on the difference between Rall and Coulter being important. Cartoonists are given more license for hyperbole. Coulter passes her drivel off as journalism.

[Stan LS]

I'm giving consideration to the thinking young Saudi BEFORE he's willing to consider imposing his way of life onto others.

Didn't her infamous line about converting muslims come right< b>after 9/11?

She's making a joke (supposedly) about something that many Muslims fear is really behind our efforts.

Oh, come on. Supposedly? You think she actually plans to head (or be a part of) a some kind of crusader movement? And why do you treat muslims like idiots? We didn't keep Kuwait after we kick Saddam out, did we? What about Kosovo? Why would you expect any rational muslim to view us as crusaders?

[Slartibartfast]

OTOH, Coulter is considered to be a journalist

By whom? Certainly not by journalists. Pundit, yes, but pundit != journalist.

[Jadegold]

I highly doubt there's any actual threat in her statement.

Mindreading?

I suspect the actual threat comes from those who look at her and read her books and are possibly influenced by her.

In a similar vein, Timmy McVeigh was influenced by the NRA and other gun nuts. Given enough inflammatory rhetoric, it's inevitable the weak-minded zealot will act out. Chanting "babykiller" enough will surely lead to someone taking a shot at a doctor or trying to bomb a clinic.

[Stan LS]

Jade,

I suspect the actual threat comes from those who look at her and read her books and are possibly influenced by her.

Mindreading?

In a similar vein, Timmy McVeigh was influenced by the NRA and other gun nuts

By the NRA? Go on.

[Slartibartfast]

Timmy McVeigh was influenced by the NRA

Oh, please. So were millions of other people, almost all of which didn't bomb buildings full of people.

On the other hand, Islamic rhetoric incited some folks to strap explosives to themselves and bomb complete strangers, so you're making an argument for Islam=evil rather nicely. I don't agree with that POV either, just to be clear.

[Stan LS]

Slarti,

I don't agree with that POV either, just to be clear.

Yea, good luck with using analogies. I tried one at the top of the thread and look what happened.

[Phil]

Gee, I must have hallucinated all of those Ted Rall columns. Time to lay off the cough syrup.

Chanting "babykiller" enough will surely lead to someone taking a shot at a doctor or trying to bomb a clinic.

Er . . . by that logic, chanting "jihad" enough will surely lead to someone flying a 747 into a plane full of innocent civilians. That's not really the argument you want to make, is it? Or are only Americans susceptible to this syndrome? (I don't think you want to make that one, either.)

[Phil]

Re: Rall, see, for example, this recent entry, one in a contintuing series of cheap shots at Pat Tillman, not to mention an accidental exercise in arguing that a) the insurgents, the terrorists, and those who just want the Americans out are all the same, morally, and b) that's OK with Rall.

[Slartibartfast]

Busted link, Phil.

[Jadegold]

Well, Phil, given that the term 'jihad' is one that has been hijacked and misused by extremists, I think your concern is misplaced.

[Slartibartfast]

Whoops

[Stan LS]

Jade,

Can you point to some text were "jihad" is used correctly and not "misused"?

[Phil]

Well, Jadegold, given that the NRA's views on gun ownership have been hijacked and misused by extremists, I think your concern is misplaced.

We can play this game all day, if you'd like, or you can concede that your argument works as easily for those concerned about inflammatory Islamic rhetoric as it does for whatever your pet shibboleths are, and actually makes their point better than it does yours. Then we can jettison the whole stupid line of inquiry and get back to discussing whether Coulter is an irresponsible and inflammatory bint.

Or not. Up to you.

[Jadegold]

Phil: Personally, I think Rall's satire is ham-handed. Having said that, though, your linked column does point up an unpleasant truth: the fact we glorified a pro athlete who made the ultimate scarifice--while we tend to ignore the sacrifices of those who aren't well-known outside of their families and small towns.

It's satire; it might not be good satire, but it is what it is.

OTOH, you have a lawyer who believes all liberals are traitors, thinks Joe McCarthy was a hero, and is sad McVeigh didn't target the NYTimes building.

[Edward]

Why would you expect any rational muslim to view us as crusaders?

Two words: General Boykin.

[Stan LS]

jade,

Hmmm

In 1995, when the VENONA transcripts were declassified, it was learned that regardless of the specific number, McCarthy consistently underestimated the extent of Soviet espionage. VENONA specifically references at least 349 people in the United States--including citizens, immigrants, and permanent residents--who cooperated in various ways with Soviet intelligence agencies.

It is generally believed that McCarthy had no access to VENONA intelligence. VENONA does confirm that some individuals investigated by McCarthy were indeed Soviet agents. For example, Mary Jane Keeney was identified by McCarthy simply as "a communist"; in fact she and her husband were both Soviet agents. Another individual named by McCarthy was Lauchlin Currie, a special assistant to President Roosevelt. He was confirmed by VENONA to be a Soviet Agent.

[Slartibartfast]

Maybe not good beliefs, Jade, but they are what they are.

[Stan LS]

Edward,

Ok. Let me get this straight. You are against americans judging the whole Muslim world by the actions of the few, but its ok for the Muslim world to judge us by the words of the few?

Once again, a "young thinking Saudi" is getting far more consideration then a young thinking American.

[Edward]

Stan,

You realize that Boykin is a general right? He's not just a citizen. He's not just some criminal, like bin Laden. He's a freakin' US General, a leader, a MILITARY leader, supposedly in charge of carrying out (some portion) of the military desires of the nation, with the ear of the SecDef and the respect of the nation. You can't compare him to a shadowy terrorist living in a cave.

[Stan LS]

Edward,

Should I go dig up a quote by a Saudi prince or a Pakistani general? Or anything from any Muslim gov't controlled media?

[Jadegold]

Well, Jadegold, given that the NRA's views on gun ownership have been hijacked and misused by extremists, I think your concern is misplaced

Phil, are you aware where McVeigh got the idea for the design of the bomb used in OK City? Are you aware the head of the NRA called BATF agents "jack-booted thugs" even as workers were removing bodies from the rubble of the Murrah Federal Building?

WRT Jihad; I'm given to understand the term 'jihad' means a personal struggle or journey to come to some greater fulfillment of God's wishes. IOW, one could embark on a jihad to better understand the Koran or to be a better husband or father. There is a term ('qital') that hads a more militant or martial meaning.

[Edward]

Should I go dig up a quote by a Saudi prince or a Pakistani general? Or anything from any Muslim gov't controlled media?

Only if you want to imply that we need not hold our generals to a higher standard than that.

[Slartibartfast]

I think the rest of us are acquainted with Google too, Jade. The more...martial of the Muslim world should note your correction, though, and henceforth use more appropriate terminology.

[murat]

As a Muslim living and wokring in USA, I totally agree with Edward.

[Slartibartfast]

Only if you want to imply that we need not hold our generals to a higher standard than that.

I thought if I said that, it'd probably not go over well. But since you did it first, Edward, allow me to lend support to the idea.

[Jadegold]

Stan LS: Do you wish to defend Joe McCarthy? Seriously?

Are you asserting he was right?

[Stan LS]

Jade,

Phil, are you aware where McVeigh got the idea for the design of the bomb used in OK City?

According to this:

McVeigh and Nichols' truck bomb was superficially similar to a design outlined in a white supremacist tract known as The Turner Diaries, but the explosive power had been souped up fairly substantially by tinkering with the chemical components. In fact, the design was strongly reminiscent of Yousef's work, which may or may not have been a coincidence.

Are you aware the head of the NRA called BATF agents "jack-booted thugs"

Wasn't he referring to Waco? Nice of you to omit the context.

I'm given to understand the term 'jihad' means a personal struggle or journey to come to some greater fulfillment of God's wishes.

Can you point us to an example where the term is being used in that way?

[Slartibartfast]

Off, damned italics.

[Stan LS]

Jade,

Hey, man. I just posted a link. You are not denying the facts as described and yet you got all fired up. Why?

[Edward]

Thanks Murat.

[lily]

Slight change of direction: I think the bullying, lying, and faux victimization of right wing commentators really degrades democracy and is deliberately calculated to stiffle civic discourse. Yes I know the left isn't perfect but even Micheal Moore doesn't stoop to the name-calling, outright lies and slander that is standard for Coulter, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity etc. And the right has a much bigger share of the airwaves.
So this is how I fight back: whenever I go into a bookstore I check to see if Coutler is present. If so I present the manager with a polite request to remove he books on the grounds that they are hate literature, not real coservative thought. I have a copy of her quote about killing liberals. I point out that at least half of the customers, if not more, are liberals. The most frequent response I get is that the publishing houses send the books and everything sent is considered maninstream. I respond that that reinforces my point. Our definition of mainstream political commentary and civil discourse shouldn't include expressions of religious bigotry, slander, and death threats. (I have written to the publisher, too.) I am carrying out a parallel campaign with a local news paper that publishes her column.
This isn't a free speach issue. She can say what she likes. Bookstores ad newspapers are under no obligation to carry her stuff. To do so is to give her an implied endorsement of respectabiity or mainstream status which contributes to the dumbing-down of our political debate.

[Jadegold]

Stan LS: I want to be clear: are you asserting Joe McCarthy has been vindicated by history?

Wasn't he referring to Waco? Nice of you to omit the context.

Does it improve LaPierre's comments? Does it excuse McVeigh bombing a building?

[Stan LS]

Slight change of direction: I think the bullying, lying, and faux victimization of right wing commentators really degrades democracy and is deliberately calculated to stiffle civic discourse. Yes I know the left isn't perfect but even Micheal Moore doesn't stoop to the name-calling, outright lies and slander that is standard for Coulter, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity etc.

Still got that "Buck Fush" sticker on your car?

[Stan LS]

Stan LS: I want to be clear: are you asserting Joe McCarthy has been vindicated by history?

The link I posted seems to indicate that he was right.

Does it improve LaPierre's comments? Does it excuse McVeigh bombing a building?

Who's trying to excuse the Oklahoma bombing? Weak, Jade. Seriously weak.

[Stan LS]

murat,

Which part? That you think that US is trying to conquer and convert Muslims?

[Edward]

If so I present the manager with a polite request to remove he books on the grounds that they are hate literature, not real coservative thought.

I love that lily. Personally, when I'm in a book store, I just turn her books around or upside down or place a Michael Moore book in front of them.

In the end though, both of them (Coulter and Moore) are in the entertainment business. Just like most blogs. ;-)

PS. Joe McCarthy is a blight on American history. Regardless of whether he had a point or two, his methods were so utterly shameless and destructive that calling him a "hero" tarnishes the word.

[Stan LS]

Edward,

I just turn her books around or upside down or place a Michael Moore book in front of them.

I'ld never stoop that low. Even if I was to see Michael Moore's books.

[Slartibartfast]

Still got that "Buck Fush" sticker on your car?

If you haven't already been warned, Stan, here's your warning. As much as I disagree with lily, I will do so politely, or not at all. As will you, per the posting rules.

[Edward]

I'ld never stoop that low.

You're a better man than I am Stan!

Mind you, I've only done that twice...but it felt good. It's the petty pleasures in life...

[Jadegold]

The link I posted seems to indicate that he was right.

Actually, it doesn't.

Nobody denies the Soviets were conducting espionage against us and had infiltrated parts of our Govt. However, McCarthy cast his net wide--for political gain and to punish his political foes--and ruined the lives and reputations of many loyal and innocent Americans.

Who's trying to excuse the Oklahoma bombing?

Wayne LaPierre. After all, the wreckage of the Murrah building is still smoldering and the NRA is sending out a fundraising appeal calling BATF agents "jack-booted thugs."

[Jadegold]

I love that lily. Personally, when I'm in a book store, I just turn her books around or upside down or place a Michael Moore book in front of them.

Hey, I cop to doing this. I also admit to taking the rightwing whackjob books (usually the Regnery published ones) in the library and relocating them to the tops of the high shelves.

I suppose I should feel bad about this. But I can't find it in my conscience.

[lily]

I've never had a Buck Fush sticker on my car. I have a "Boycott Veal" sticker.