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October 19, 2004

Comments

I see. Iran was against Taliban and so are we. Hence we are friends with Iranians. Got ya.

christ Edwards...

I use to frequent this blog regularly - honest yet partisan discourse. But when the first sentence is via Kos, I have to question the veracity. Its as effective as saying al Qaeda backs Kerry via Anti-Idoitarian Rottweiller.

Not that either may be correct, just how partisan of a POV their coming from.

bains: Edward put up a link to a perfectly good AP story. Acknowledging the site where he found the reference is just polite.

listen bains, i don't share your negative opinion of Kos. i happen to know him personally as well as post there and do not take kindly that anything that comes from DKos is suspect. Would you say the same if it came from Red State or Tacitus?

You really missed the mark here bains. Hilzoy is exactly right, and just so you know, this story was also covered on Tacitus, which I read as frequently as I do Kos, but I saw it on Kos first, hence the polite cite. I agree with wilfred, as well, that painting Kos as if it were any more or less wingnut than RedState isn't supported by the overall tone on either.

Further, I make two remarks suggesting I don't take this seriously and am simply having some partisan fun with it. So your "christ Edwards...I use to frequent this blog regularly" protest falls flat for me. If you have a comment that actually addresses the AP article rather than what strikes me as somewhat feigned outrage, please do offer it.

Of course, if you'd rather just make this about me, I can offer you an open thread instead. I mean some folks may want to debate why Iran offered this unsolicited opinion.

Well, they have Don King, too, as Katherine pointed out the other day. But I noticed my man Kerry has garnered the Arafat vote.

Saddam is mulling over his absentee ballot.

So, does everyone like the GLOBAL economy and all this cool interdependency. I thought I did, but I thought it would just invlolve me buying cheap crap at Wal Mart made by little kids in Bangladesh. Good for me, ha ha to them... But they're endorsing and voting now.

We can't have that.

I understand Rove is dressed in a burkha and somehow involved in lower court elections in Ramalla. Something to do with the odd idea that the opposition candidate likes children a little too much.

OT, but in case you missed on other blogs here it is:

http://www.robertscheer.com
"The 9/11 Secret in the CIA's Back Pocket"

This CIA report names names & who was responsible for what and Congress has asked for the CIA report, but they believe it is being withheld until after elections. Peter Gross is in charge of the CIA these days so go figure. It's highly critical of BushCo.

http://www.glsq.com/pti_961.htm

Bush was Kicked out of the TANG as "unfit to serve" The documents released last Friday had PTI 961 on them so someone went to the trouble to find out exactly what that referred to.

It's http://www.glcq.com/pti_961.htm, k ols.

I understand Rove is dressed in a burkha and somehow involved in lower court elections in Ramalla."

Nah. Here is the picture of Rove yesterday you don't want to miss.

Hey but don't worry, Kerry has Arafat's endorsement. Nothing like getting the endorsement from the father of modern Arab terrorism. :)

There's a real-world reason why Arafat would fall into the ABB camp, Sebastian, as I expect you'll realize when you think about it.

During Bush's term of office, the Israel/Palestinian situation got significantly worse, and Bush not only made no effort to alleviate it, he may actually have actively worsened the situation, by making it clear to Ariel Sharon that no matter what Israel did, the US would not intervene or even speak out.

I've said before, I'll say it again: what Israel and Palestine need is a big gorilla to make them sit down with each other, and that big gorilla has to have at least some claim to neutrality, to give both sides some reason to believe that they will both get something out of negotiation rather than conflict.

The US has never been very good at remaining neutral, but Bush lost it completely. (Besides being the worst President in decades at negotiation and foreign diplomacy.) I don't doubt Arafat thinks "Better anyone but Bush." I suspect - though I have not asked any of my Israeli friends - that so do the many Israelis who don't support Ariel Sharon as blindly as George W. Bush does.

'the father of modern Arab terrorism'

gee, I thought that was Menachem Begin...

"remote possibility for him to risk attacking a much bigger and more powerful country like Iran," he said."

Whatever they want to think, right Saddaam? Do you suppose maybe we could just choose diffent strategy and weaponry - those that aren't as labor intensive. I bet they rub their chins a little before they play that hand. Even if Kerry wins, he certainly would have many options, some quite effective.

OK, so this has descended into the ususal partisan posturing (mea culpa)...let me see if I can redirect it a bit:

What would Iran gain by announcing this? I personally don't expect them to have an easy time of it regardless of which candidate is elected, so it strikes me they're either just playing around, hoping to embarass Bush as payback, or ... I don't know what.

What's interesting from a global standpoint here, is that, as I understand it, Iran and Russia are allies (no?...Stan?). But their endorsements seem to cancel each other out. Which brings me back to thinking Iran is just having some fun with this...

"What would Iran gain by announcing this?"

I'm guessing general troublemaking, myself.

Moe

I'm guessing general troublemaking, myself.

I find myself in entire agreement.

Don't worry, I don't expect it to happen again.

"Don't worry, I don't expect it to happen again."

What, you stopped reading Terry Pratchett?

'the father of modern Arab terrorism'

gee, I thought that was Menachem Begin...

(Aside from the lack of the necessary closing period on the ellipsis) I can't make sense of this remark. I despise Begin, but he's hardly responsible for the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in 1941, or the Hebron pogrom/riots of 1920, or any of the earlier series of Arab attacks on Jews.

Nor could you have meant "father of Jewish terrorism," since Begin was but a follower of Vladimir Jabotinsky.
"Father of mideast terrorism" or "father of Arab-Jewish terrorism" don't work, either.

So what did you mean by that?

But, then, I still have raised eyebrows from being informed yesterday in a Crooked Timber thread, after the usual Israel-has-no-right-to-exist crap, that both L. Paul Bremer and John Negoroponte are Jooos (thus proving "all that needs to be said about Bush's policies" and who controls America, yadda, yadda).

"But, then, I still have raised eyebrows from being informed yesterday in a Crooked Timber thread, after the usual Israel-has-no-right-to-exist crap, that both L. Paul Bremer and John Negoroponte are Jooos (thus proving "all that needs to be said about Bush's policies" and who controls America, yadda, yadda)."

Say wha? I thought that CT's comment threads were essentially civil.

What, you stopped reading Terry Pratchett?

You haven't posted about Pratchett in months.

"You haven't posted about Pratchett in months. "

Good point.

well, we just got John Le Carre ...

We've had Le Carre for awhile now; in fact, his most recent novel, Absolute Friends, skewers both Bushes.

Essentially, Le Carre takes on the elder Bush for not having a coherent plan (sound familiar?) for filling the void left by the collapse of the Soviet Union. He then castigates the younger Bush for using the war on terrorism as a cynical political ploy while managing to alienate the rest of the world.

What would Iran gain by announcing this?

Their PR firm was offering a special this week?

"I've said before, I'll say it again: what Israel and Palestine need is a big gorilla to make them sit down with each other, and that big gorilla has to have at least some claim to neutrality, to give both sides some reason to believe that they will both get something out of negotiation rather than conflict."

Actually I suspect that all it needs is a big gorilla to tell the Palestinians that they aren't ever getting all of Israel, and a medium sized gorilla to keep Israel from trying too hard to take advantage.

Crooked Timber is right on the verge of dropping into the CalPundit comment morass. Hmm, I wonder if "Calpundit Comments" would be a good label for once useful and generally civil comments that have turned into a place that would make some freepers or indymedia commenters run screaming? (Yes I know it is WashingtonMonthly now).

I was merely suggesting that to term Arafat "the father of modern Arab terrorism" seems to be a bit, well, overstated. I'm certainly not suggesting that Israel-doesn't-have-a-right-to-exist, nor do I want to suggest that Israel-is-totally-justified-in-whatever-it-does (the dashes are to indicate that these are lump ideas that I'm not accusing anyone here of holding) That was the reason that there wasn't a closing period after the ellipses, I thought it represented a comment that was merely meant to be an ironic observation rather than an actual argument.

Sebastian: Actually I suspect that all it needs is a big gorilla to tell the Palestinians that they aren't ever getting all of Israel, and a medium sized gorilla to keep Israel from trying too hard to take advantage.

Occam's Law suggests that two gorillas is too complex a solution.

Crooked Timber is right on the verge of dropping into the CalPundit comment morass.

Sounds as if someone's comment was not received with the proper level of obsequiousness.

"Say wha? I thought that CT's comment threads were essentially civil."

Well, yes, he rather civilly noted that they were both Jews, etc. [wry grin]

I briefly blogged this the day before yesterday, not that I'm implying you should be reading my blog, Moe, and I can particularly understand finding it irritating at present, given the frequency with which I'm being very sarcastically partisan regarding Bush/Kerry -- though I do have many non-political posts, as well, at least a few of which I fancy you might be amused by -- but my ratio of partisanship is presently as high as it's likely to ever go.

Anyway, the CT thread is here, although since it's now scrolled off the front page, I imagine the conversation has more or less ceased (haven't checked it yet this morning).

"I was merely suggesting that to term Arafat "the father of modern Arab terrorism" seems to be a bit, well, overstated."

Fair enough; I tend to agree, as I indicated; it was the Begin aspect that puzzled me.

"That was the reason that there wasn't a closing period after the ellipses, I thought it represented a comment that was merely meant to be an ironic observation rather than an actual argument."

To descend into my stereotype, but on the off chance someone finds it useful in that they don't know this, one uses three dots for an ellipsis to indicate an eliding (not, Edward, simply a random ending), and when it ends a sentence, a period must be put there, just as a period ends any sentence not otherwise ending with a question mark, exclamation, or double-dash, thus resulting in four dots. It's really quite simple.

"Crooked Timber is right on the verge of dropping into the CalPundit comment morass."

I wouldn't go that far -- though it's sufficient for me that any site that gets hundreds of comments per entry means I'm not going to bother to even glance at the comments -- but even I would say that I find an annoying number of dumb-ass knee-jerk-leftists who have no clue what they're talking about (particularly on military subjects), or who simply are spouting stereotypical blather, showing up there. Not in huge numbers, but enough for me to find it irritating.

And Israel or anti-Semitism seems to always bring out a majority of equivacators-at-best, plus a smattering of Israel-has-no-right-to-exist, and often, though not always, a couple of outright anti-Semites. But see the thread, if you're interested, for a comparatively lesser example (no truly raving anti-Semites this time, at least). But it is the sort of thing that gives a bit of show-and-tell on the threads of off-putting-to-nauseating views on Israel that run rife through the left these days, I'm afraid.

"To descend into my stereotype, but on the off chance someone finds it useful in that they don't know this, one uses three dots for an ellipsis to indicate an eliding (not, Edward, simply a random ending), and when it ends a sentence, a period must be put there [...]"

I disagree for sentences which fade away or conclude with a certain sort of significant pause. For elision, I favor the MLA bracket form above.

I use ... for ellipses: .... for an ellipsis at the end of a sentence: and ..... for where I'm indicating a cut in the text.

Gary...

...I know...you've told me...repeatedly...

;ppp

Punctuation! Much better than this political garbage that will be gone in 2 weeks.

I thought three dots meant an unfinished sentence or thought, so adding a 4th would be misleading.

I would also add that the ellipsis points alone are used in Japan to denote speechlessness, though there are usually four rather than three. Go here and look at the first entry in chapter 2. For you Beatles fans, go to bottom for a John Lennon smiley.

Of course, Jes, that should have been:

I use "..." for ellipses; "...." for an ellipsis at the end of a sentence; and "....." for where I'm indicating a cut in the text.
:-)

"I thought three dots meant an unfinished sentence or thought, so adding a 4th would be misleading."

It does, and and I was excessively incomplete (one is necessarily always somewhat incomplete). When quoting an incomplete, elided, or unfinished phrase, within a sentence one uses an ellipsis; when it comes at the end of a sentence, one adds the period. I'd quote the Chicago Manual of Style or Words Into Type, but mine are in storage.

Edward,,,,, writ yu!!! kinas U? wish........."not))) me [email protected] red jr..........llys.........be......fer. ?!???!?!!!!!?!?l*turate/sub""""

But I'm sure you know that.

and "....." for where I'm indicating a cut in the text.
Except I forgot to mention that there are no circumstances whatever where five dots is proper. I use "[...]," myself. (I trust you can untangle my proper punctuation there?)

Personally, I'd be more interested in reading anyone's comments on the CT thread, though I don't know that anyone would surprise me.

I use "..." for ellipses; "...." for an ellipsis at the end of a sentence; and "....." for where I'm indicating a cut in the text.

*waves hand dismissively* whatever.

I tend to regard communication in blogcomments as more important than making slight mistakes in punctuation, grammar, or spelling. You understood what I meant.

Except I forgot to mention that there are no circumstances whatever where five dots is proper.

I enjoy being improper sometimes.

When quoting an incomplete, elided, or unfinished phrase, within a sentence one uses an ellipsis; when it comes at the end of a sentence, one adds the period. I'd quote the Chicago Manual of Style or Words Into Type, but mine are in storage.

Hmmm...[.]
"Ellipsis marks are also used for pauses and unfinished statements in quoted speech ("I don't know . . ." his voice trailed off.)"
http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/pubstyle/ch3_1.htm
I really don't think it makes any sense to say there is an unfinished phrase within a sentence.

At any rate, I took a look at the CT thread, and I don't know, but it looks like it started off hot from the get-go. I mean, the fifth comment had Israel as a 'pirate state'. Isn't there some variation of Godwin's law that internet discussion threads are unidirectional, in that they always descend, but they are unable to ascend? I certainly don't think that thread would be chosen as a typical CT thread (especially since it cites FrontPage Magazine in the post). It has been a little heated over there (didn't someone get banned during the hero thread?) but it's been heated everywhere.

The sentence-ending "ellipsis" isn't really an ellipsis per se. It's simply the written equivalent of a particular intonation contour where the speaker's tone, instead of falling at the end of an utterance, stays level or rises slightly (as if the speaker had more to say but decided to leave it unsaid). It's a well-established standard in casual writing to use an ellipsis without a period for this purpose.

Regarding "...I really don't think it makes any sense to say there is an unfinished phrase within a sentence...," it certainly can make sense.

In the above sentence, I just quoted a phrase I made unfinished.

Or, of course, one can -- holy crap, a bomb is about to--

[BOOM!]

As I was saying above, before I reconstituted my body, "or, of course, one can -- holy crap, a bomb is about to--," and what I meant say was that one can quote an interrupted, incomplete, phrase; this is just another of several possibilities.

Jes, you're generally a quite clear writer; I wasn't trying to pick on you. Please don't go further, though, into such silliness as trying to separate written communication from "punctuation, grammar, or spelling." That's always a doomed line of argument. It's also highly boring.

"It's simply the written equivalent of a particular intonation contour where the speaker's tone...."

I'd have been fired from any copyediting position at any book company or magazine I ever worked at in my life if I claimed that in regard to anything other than dialogue or an idiosyncratic piece of fiction. But I'm not trying to enforce any style guides here, nor trying to hold people to an unreasonable standard (I'm scarcely impeccable on lack of typos, solecicisms, and casual awfulness, myself, in comments), so I'll shut up on the topic now, again.

"It's simply the written equivalent of a particular intonation contour where the speaker's tone...."

That's one of the ways I use it. But maybe it is more complicated than that...

. Please don't go further, though, into such silliness as trying to separate written communication from "punctuation, grammar, or spelling." That's always a doomed line of argument. It's also highly boring.

Oh, do pay attention to what I actually wrote, Gary.

I wrote: "I tend to regard communication in blogcomments as more important than making slight mistakes in punctuation, grammar, or spelling. You understood what I meant."

If someone writes:

we canot weight for the final proof -- the smokng gun -- that kerry is the wring choice -- that coud come in the form of a mushroom cloud.

then I will respond to what they are clearly communicating, rather than picking apart each typo, mispelling, and punctuation error.

So would you, I trust.

I used to work as a professional technical communicator. I make a clear distinction between writing as a pro, where the only acceptable standard is absolutely error-free, and writing casually on blog comments and so on, where it's perfectly acceptable to make small errors so long as what you mean is clear.

(Especially as, on blog comments, it's not possible to go back and correct the typos you only notice once the thing is posted. I used to proofread everything I wrote professionally at least twice over - there's no way I'm going to do that with a blog comment.)

I'd have been fired from any copyediting position at any book company or magazine I ever worked at in my life if I claimed that in regard to anything other than dialogue or an idiosyncratic piece of fiction.

Well, but that's not casual writing. Blog comments (along with friendly email and IM) are stylistically closer to conversation than formal writing.

Edward,,,,, writ yu!!! kinas U? wish........."not))) me [email protected] red jr..........llys.........be......fer. ?!???!?!!!!!?!?l*turate/sub""""

But I'm sure you know that.

I don't know Gary. Could be, but have you double-checked? I only ask because according to this cite,

¾ßÈÄ! ºí·Î±×ÀÇ Ç÷§Æû ÀÌÀü ÀÛ¾÷À¸·Î ÀÎÇØ

But, as in most things, I'll kowtow to your authority on the matter.


I'm moved toward the conclusion that either Edward has had too much cold medication, or he doesn't have the Korean character plugin.

I'm moved toward the conclusion that either Edward has had too much cold medication, or he doesn't have the Korean character plugin.

Could be both.

Some of the cold medication mentioned on the Chicken Soup thread looked pretty heavy stuff.

ahhh nuts...I don't have the Korean character plugin...

looked funny on my screen...I'm tire of this cold, dammit...

I prefer Korean Character soup, meself.

Quit blogging for a while, Edward. And I'm not just saying that to stifle your dissent. Get some sleep, man.

I'm with Slarti on this. Sleep, Edward. Sleep.

Sleep, Edward. Sleep.

grumblefriggingrumble....

Fine.

But if they find bin Laden while I'm dozing, will somebody note that I picked yesterday in the poll?

But if they find bin Laden while I'm dozing, will somebody note that I picked yesterday in the poll?

I was hoping everyone had fogotten about this. I picked October 11th.

Is blogging/posting comments actually that different from sleeping? :-)

I'm quite sure that if you can walk out of your house and have sex with a stranger, in your sleep, you can sleep-write.

Besides, when Edward comments snarkily, he is expelling the bad humors from his body. Health benefits!

What kind of remark is that about Lil Kim? I'd vote for her in a heartbeat over the two politicos running for the presidency. Comparing her with Putin and the Iranian, I'd say you are overlooking:
a. She is a fox, and they are sexual depressants;
b. She stands for pleasure, and they stand for pain
c. She sings better than they do.
d. and she makes better musical videos.

So let us not be messing around with Lil Kim.

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