« Personal Fears Semi-Open Post | Main | Your ObWi Hospital report »

January 12, 2018

Comments

I don't have to pick and choose, if you get busted for either of those things it's on you. Same.

I don't have to pick and choose

but you do. you roll the dice and take your chances.

it amazes me how "conservatives" work so damned hard to alienate what could be a very loyal constituency with their hideous and misguided anti-human-reality rhetoric.

"anti-human-reality rhetoric."

https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2018/01/23/rush-limbaugh-deep-state-may-have-faked-saddam-wmd-evidence-damage-george-w-bush/219148

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/you-need-to-watch-this

CIA and the FBI, the instruments of conservative American authoritarianism since World War II, are hippies, faggots, niggers, wetbacks, kikes, towelheads and liberals now.

America is so far around the bend that nuclear incineration at the hands of North Korea would only be the beginning of what needs to happen to rid the world of this verminous republican bacterial plague.

We'll still have to piss on their ashes to sterilize the landscape.

There has never been anything like this infestation in American history.

Fuck elections.

yeah, but ... a Democrat.

More:

https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2018/01/mueller-purge-and-right-wing-crazy.html

I don't know how republican traitorous filth, the tens of millions of them, are going to fare when an enraged, armed America public rises up in spectacular vengeance if the CIA and the FBI are not there to defend their dead asses.

See how it works. Republican conservative bugs give us the freedom to kill and main everywhere but where THEY reside.

http://juanitajean.com/heads-up-texas-state-capitol-visitors/

Politicians in Texas must be getting very worried about what is about to happen to them as their stinking corrupt world comes apart at the seams.

Yet:

https://www.texastribune.org/2017/01/03/lawmaker-hopes-passing-constitutional-carry-bill-2/

Yet:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-gop-gun-bill-concealed-carry-20171206-story.html

Yet, pigs in the Texas Statehouse I expect will still be permitted to carry in the hallways and their offices.

That doesn't seem like a fair fight: enraged but completely unarmed citizens petitioning their permanently enraged fully armed vermin republican overlords.

Why are Putin's Russia and the Republican paramilitary slime, the NRA, cooperating in this ruination of America?

and what will you do with your tax break, Kimberly-Clark?

lay off 5000 people and close 10 plants!

yay.

If the Democratic party tries to run a pro-establishment presidential candidate in 2020, I, Caitlin Johnstone, promise unequivocally and unconditionally that I will do every single thing in my power to sabotage their candidacy and make them lose the election.

Because an encore of Trump would be just so much better. As HSH so succinctly put it: "grow the fuck up." Children get to posture; adults are expected to do better.

That was cleek. But I agree. I mean, I get that she would like what she believes to be better candidates for office, but there may be better ways to get there. Of course, she's free to what she's proposing, even if it's stupid.

for bonus fun: Caitlin Johnstone is Australian, and so she's completely insulated from domestic US politics. nevertheless, she pushed Seth Rich conspiracies, thinks the left needs to work with the alt-right to destroy "the establishment"... among other nonsense.

I didn't read ALL seven million pages of Obamacare but I'm pretty sure it didn't cover the pre-existing condition known as Apoplectic Dyspeptic Obamacare Rage Syndrome and its organic republican cure, attempted finger fucking of republican staff members (without members in this case):

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/pat-meehan-obamacare-sexual-harassment_us_5a6841a1e4b002283007d9bc

I just had to look up Caitlin Johnstone. If I got the right one, she sounds like a complete crazy, a kind of lefty version of Alex Jones. Jesus wept.....

https://www.thedailybeast.com/climate-change-is-making-sea-turtles-more-female-now-what?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning

Lots of strange stuff down under.

If this doesn't get Rick Santorum and company off their global warming denialism, nothing will.

it amazes me how "conservatives" work so damned hard to alienate what could be a very loyal constituency

please proceed, republicans.

"If I got the right one, she sounds like a complete crazy, a kind of lefty version of Alex Jones."

Of course she does. She's Australian and therefore must spin counterclockwise.

Grow the fuck up, Johnstone! (And Garcia on a later post)

Conform. Obey. Do as You Are Told. Fight for us. Stuff your idealism. Our bank accounts depend on your loyalty. Buy our books. Never stop clapping. We're winning. Really we are. Get with the crowd. It's for your own good. We really care for you.

There is no alternative.

beat that strawman! beat it good!

Grow the fuck up, Johnstone! (And Garcia on a later post)

Conform. Obey. Do as You Are Told. Fight for us. Stuff your idealism.

Not at all. Just try getting a grip on reality, and on the real world consequences of the actions you advocate. It's entirely possible to do that without conforming, without being blindly obedient, without abandoning ideals.

everybody wants the eschaton. not duncan black, the other eschaton.

Hartman vs King in Penn Cong District 16

"It turned out the Democratic Party had other ideas — or, at least, it had an old idea. As is happening in races across the country, party leaders in Washington and in the Pennsylvania district rallied, instead, around a candidate who, in 2016, had raised more money than a Democrat ever had in the district and suffered a humiliating loss anyway."

Raising money means spending money on... establishment Democrats (media, consultants, organizers). They don't care if they win.

Who Owns the Womans March

"A number of marches across the United States have received letters from Women's March Inc., protesting their use of the term "women’s march." As the New York Times reported earlier this week, Amber Selman-Lynn, a Mobile, Alabama-based organizer, received a letter from Women's March, Inc. requesting the name be removed from materials promoting the march."

"In the meantime, Women's March Inc. is continuing to prepare for its anniversary event in Las Vegas, Nevada on Sunday."

I can't find the article/study that shows almost all left-of-centre-but-not-left grassroots activism is controlled by the Democratic Party. Basically, the above gives a hint of how it is done. There are a whole lot of lawyers been graduating, many of them women, few of who can find good private jobs.

All politics and activism is getting swallowed up by this big bright green money-making machine. Idealism and energy gets monetized.

This has to be destroyed.

I can't find the article/study that shows almost all left-of-centre-but-not-left grassroots activism is controlled by the Democratic Party.

well, i'd certainly love to see that. it would maybe help sell your conspiracy theory.

She's Australian and therefore must spin counterclockwise.

*golf clap*

Oh, finally (most of my links I get from Naked Capitalism, you really don't need the Times and WaPo. I also use Guardian and BBC)

What is Neoliberalism ...Jacobin

"When identifying the root cause of this growing appetite for excellence, Curran and Hill don’t mince words: it’s neoliberalism. Neoliberal ideology reveres competition, discourages cooperation, promotes ambition, and tethers personal worth to professional achievement. Unsurprisingly, societies governed by these values make people very judgmental, and very anxious about being judged.

It describes the feeling of paranoia and anxiety engendered by the persistent — and not entirely unfounded — sensation that everyone is waiting for you to make a mistake so they can write you off forever. This hyper-perception of others’ impossible expectations causes social alienation, neurotic self-examination, feelings of shame and unworthiness, and “a sense of self overwhelmed by pathological worry and a fear of negative social evaluation, characterized by a focus on deficiencies, and sensitive to criticism and failure.”

Wolfgang Streeck, Socialism vs Liberalism Much longer, pdf

In the new left-universalist cosmopolitan frame of mind, borders became anathema,as did localized solidarity discounting national-state government in favor of liberal-voluntaristic governance by experts, epistemic communities, well-meaning NGOs, and problem-solving, knowledge-processing international conferences."

it would maybe help sell your conspiracy theory.

Not a conspiracy theory, more sociology

There is a bit of a war on the far left regarding Caitlin Johnson (spelling?). Bob may not be aware of this. Nina Illingworth who is very far left despises her for a couple of reasons— first, Caitlin is trying to get the far left to make alliances with the alt right including Cernovich and second, Nina thinks Johnstone or whatever her name is plagiarizes like crazy from, among others, Nina Illingworth. The Counterpunch crowd isn’t crazy about Caitlin either. Nina thinks Caitlin is a closet right winger. Her claim is that Caitlin plagiarizes Nina’s foreign policy stuff because it does appeal to a subset of the far right, but ignores Nina when she writes about rightwing racism. I haven’t read enough of Caitlin to know if this theory holds up, but fairly or unfairly, there are enough far lefties around I don’t have to bother finding out.

I read Caitlin briefly before becoming aware of this, because some of her stuff I agree with, before I read about the unsavory rightwing links. I read Illingworth now. I don’t completely agree with her, but one has to balance the far left with the crackpot center and the anti - imperialist and non- fascist right at The American Conservative and hope that out of all this something like the truth might emerge.

Bob may not be aware of this.

Wasn't aware. I read the journalism stuff pretty fast, and generally ignore or forget bylines. I can't name more than a couple Counterpunch writers. I also don't follow the infighting or controversies. I'm extracting agreeable nuggets.

Mark Fisher famously said the first rule of the Vampire Castle (neoliberal twitterverse) was "Personalize Everything." Who wrote X, what is their gender, their ethnicity, history, politics. Since then I have tried to do the opposite.

That part of my memory is dedicated to published writers, with books, whom I will follow in their articles. And some ole bloggers.

Not a conspiracy theory, more sociology

i'm sure many fine sociologists would be appalled at the idea that sociology is little more than Glenn Beck style insinuation and guilt-by-imagined-association.

anyhoo.. pie time.

I'm extracting agreeable nuggets

Confirmation bias and bubble maintenance in action, I'd say.

I find that Jacobin excerpt on neoliberalism to be reasonably accurate, at least as the social phenomenon goes, even if it isn’t actually neoliberalism that’s to blame for it.

“I also don't follow the infighting or controversies. I'm extracting agreeable nuggets.”

That’s not a terrible idea, imo. Sometimes the arguments and infighting are remarkably petty. And there are people like the LGM crowd who can be worth reading on some issues, except when they are on one of their petty jihads.

But the drawback is when you quote someone like Caitlin people look her up, see the unsavory stuff and dismiss everything. Like I said, I read Caitlin for a bit and agreed with some of her posts ( which Illingworth rightly or wrongly thinks are plagiarized), but wouldn’t cite her on anything.

who can be worth reading on some issues, except when they are on one of their petty jihads.

Because you are so remarkably worthwhile at all times. Because you are the purist among us. Thank you, Jesus. Thank you very much.

That’s not a terrible idea, imo. I don't know, with the amount of astroturfing and people putting up disingenuous argumentation, that seems to be asking for trouble, especially when one isn't bothered to find out what other things the person said. If you say 'so and so said this, though s/he has also [qualifying factors]' For the example of Caitlin, I know don't know if bob mcmanus knows about her problems or if he even cares.

That's why I will really only discuss with people here, I'm not going to start tweeting or dropping into other blogs to put forth my point of view. I realize that this deprives all those other people of my pearls of wisdom, but I think they will manage. There is a real difference between someone who is simply misguided and doesn't reflect on what are or would be the actual consequences of their arguments and someone who says something for the joy of being contrarian. You mentioned earlier that it is easy to get a big head (mentioning Greenwald, Chomsky and Hersh) and the problem is that people are often unable to admit they were mistaken. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but someone who says 'gee, I need to rethink this a bit' gets a lot more credit from me than someone who is sure they are right all the time.

"Petty Jihads"

Great band name.

Just to be clear. I'm hardly ever right, and so far, so good, but I try to fit in with fellow Americans by being emphatically wrong.

my favorite band name ever: jesus chrysler

Word association: "I am changing my name to Chrysler...."

Other word association: seen on the front of a t-shirt in P-town many years ago:

"Jesus is coming."

On the back:

"Look busy."

“Because you are so...”

I thought of responding by admitting that of course many of us including me like to bash the horrible people who disagree with us, but I was talking to bob about LGM, where we probably agree and you decided to go personal again. If I spend any time here at all, I am inevitably going to say something you disagree with and long experience shows you will launch a personal attack. And you do it with others. One hardly has to be anything remotely close to a saint to behave better than you do. I do wonder if I should have stuck to my earlier decision just to lurk. I think my main contribution here is posting the occasional interesting link. But if I leave, it will be my decision unless I get booted and not because you are the way you are.

LJ— I don’t see people fundamentally changing their views much. It happens, but it is rare. I picked out those three because they like to argue from the outside, so to speak, but a great many others like to argue from the inside ( particularly against the outsiders) and don’t have to admit error except from the safety of a crowd, so if they were wrong, it doesn’t mean anything since all the serious people were wrong with them. People on the fringes, I think, are reluctant to admit error because it will be used as proof they were never worth listening to. That is my impression of the psychology at work with both Greenwald types and Greenwald haters. It’s a bad dynamic but I am not going to stop reading the dissenting types because it it, any more than I will stop reading the NYT even if I don’t trust them.

Just reread Notes on Nationalism. That essay never grows old.

Donald, please don't go away.

*****

Since it's an open thread, and it's that time of night, and one thought (or YouTube autoplay) leads to another, here's my favorite rendition of one of my all-time favorite songs. Good jokes, too.

can't we all just get along?

Thanks Janie, that's wonderful and I had never seen it.

To modify Marx's well known dictum, "history repeats itself, the first as tragedy, then as farce, and then as pure unadulterated blockheadedness."

Marx vs. Bakunin
Trotsky vs. Stalin
Caitlin Johnstone vs. anything approaching common sense

can't we all just get along?

I wish.

Marty - glad you liked it.

I still can't believe Pete is really gone. When I first came upon that video, the account had Arlo's wife's name (or initials) as the owner, and she was the one (I've always assumed) who wrote the blurb. She died in Oct. 2012, Pete in Jan. 2014 -- a hard couple of years for Arlo, no doubt.

Yes Janie, that was lovely. I went to see Pete sing in Central Park once in the late 70s (memorable because someone near me asked me to put out my cigarette - in a park! I was astonished in those unenlightened days) and I remember tears coming to my eyes as we all sang This Land is Your Land. As for Arlo, apart from his connection to his father, and Alice's Restaurant, I love him for his version of The City of New Orleans. You've made me think, I don't know much about his other stuff, I must search it out.

good seats still available for his show in Durham NC! $250 each.

Donald, please don't go away.

Seconded!

Thirded!

For GftNC and old times' sake -- the original Alice.

I agree about City of New Orleans, and there are other Arlo songs I do like for their own sake. But I especially enjoy Arlo and Pete together. I saw Arlo in the fall of 1969, outdoor concert, he wouldn't sing Alice, he was sick of it. Then I saw him with Pete a couple of times many years later, once indoors and once in a big outdoor arena next to Lake Michigan in Milwaukee.

The real Alice wrote a cookbook, capitalizing on the song or, more probably, the movie. My copy is buried in the frozen attic, i.e. unreachable at the moment, so I must heavily paraphrase the chapter on "Foreign Cookery," the entirety of which went something like this:

"Soy sauce makes it Chinese, tomato makes it Italian, tarragon makes it French, and garlic makes it good."

What's shocking to me, somehow, is all the folks who know Arlo Guthrie . . . but have never even heard of his father.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxiMrvDbq3s

Thanks to the people who want me to stay. I probably will because it is an addiction. And I don't want sapient to leave either. We don't play well together, but I pretty much try not to respond to sapient when I see a post I don't agree with, as it doesn't end well. This seems like advice that should go both ways, except when we are in actual agreement. But I will keep reading sapient's posts.

wj -- that made me chuckle. I went to lunch once with one of my offspring and my offspring's (at the time) significant other, a young person of great ability, high accomplishment, and, based on family history, some amount of cultural sophistication. This was one of the things said during the conversation:

"Who's Arlo Guthrie?"

A similar comment was made about some sports figure (I can't remember who it was), even though the speaker had been a varsity college athlete perself (to use Marge Piercy's pronoun).

We all live in our little bubbles, and I suspect that this encounter had as much to do with this young person's parents and I inhabiting different bubbles as it did with some generational difference. My kids certainly knew who Pete and Arlo were from a very young age, even though that was because of my enthusiasms and not their own.

This lunch took place in a town that has a store called "The Group W Bench."

Heh.

We all live in our little bubbles, ...

I remember being startled in the mid-'70s when I encountered adults who had no idea who Patty Hearst was.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Very_Serious_People

a thoughtful and well-balanced wiki page.

LOL

Vhttps://www.marketwatch.com/story/guggenheim-reportedly-offered-trump-a-gold-toilet-for-the-white-house-2018-01-25?siteid=bigcharts&dist=bigcharts

A shitter for the full of shit bowel movement called the republican/mp gummint.

a thoughtful and well-balanced wiki page.

and it helpfully includes a link to "tone troll" at the bottom! as if the page itself wasn't a good enough example.

Not surprisingly, I agreed with the basic intent of the wiki page, but the writer seemed to want to throw every single thing that has ever annoyed him about the center left to center right into a description of one Platonic ideal of, say, the average pundit. But physical law prevents such a high concentration of annoying behavior into one person. He or she would collapse into a black hole and the punditry would be lost inside the event horizon.

my favorite part was the claim that very serious people are interested in small towns in new england.

every four years they go to manchester NH to listen to pols blather, then up to dixville notch to watch some colorful old coot cast his vote.

not too many david brooks sightings in berlin, or tuners falls, or atkinson mills.

most folks would prefer that new england fall off the continent and sink into the ocean.

had a chat with a facebook acquaintance. he lives in cincinatti, doesn't like how all the coastal elites refer to his hometown as flyover country. i tried to hip him to the idea that referring to people who live near the coasts as "elites" was kind of the same thing.

he wasn't having it. didn't i know that all the power and money was on the coasts?

i guess i missed that part.

here is my little joke: i don't mind being a coastal elite, but i wish the money was a little better.

hahaha!

mostly i wish i could buy a house for what my friend in cincinatti paid for his.

the thing i have the least patience with in today's political climate is all the people feeling sorry for themselves because they think somebody else is looking down their noses at them. everybody's a victim.

if you're living where you want to live, leading the life you want to live, why do care what some guy in NY or LA thinks? do you want to lead his life instead? maybe thank your lucky stars you'e doing your own thing and just get on with it.

mostly i think people should turn off their damn TVs and get offa facebook. turn the talk radio off and switch to a nice music station.
read a book, travel somewhere, talk to some people you haven't met before. open your mind. or just go fishing and listen to the water flow for a while.

turn down the crazy.

this account of how Dutch intelligence watched (literally, with their own security cameras) "Cozy Bear" hack the US is amazing.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/tech/dutch-agencies-provide-crucial-intel-about-russia-s-interference-in-us-elections~a4561913/

he wasn't having it. didn't i know that all the power and money was on the coasts?

you want concentrated power, go find the Senators from WY, who have 66 times the voting per (per person) than Senators from CA.

finance is centered in wall street. media is NYC and LA. so, he's got a point there.

tech, at the very high end, is san fran and to a lesser extent boston, but also denver and durham. tech at the not very high end is all over the country. so, a point-ish.

health care is all over the country.
real estate is all over the country. construction is all over the country. agriculture is everywhere *except* the coasts.

consumer goods and retail is mostly headquartered in the midwest. proctor and gamble, frex, is headquartered in my friend's very own cincinnati.

the ten largest employers in the US, as of 2013 anyway.

three have headquarters in the dreaded coastal areas. the rest are in flyover land, including at least one right there in Cinci.

if you watch TV and think some talking head is "the coast" you are mistaken. if what the talking head says annoys you, change the channel. if what the pundit writes in the Very Serious Newspaper bugs you, read something else.

read a book, maybe.

people believe what they believe. good luck changing their minds.

Show your friend this map

http://www.visualcapitalist.com/walmart-nation-mapping-largest-employers-u-s/

apologies if someone shared it here...

i've always liked how these "coasts" don't include states south of VA or north of SF.

...or north of SF.

Portland and Seattle aren't eeeevil (and, by extension, the states they're in)?

i'm sure they are. but i never hear wingnuts complaining about them.

Until today, I'd never heard of my home state's largest employer, at least as far as I can recall.

Sad!

russell: "if you're living where you want to live, leading the life you want to live, why do care what some guy in NY or LA thinks? do you want to lead his life instead? maybe thank your lucky stars you'e doing your own thing and just get on with it."

Co-sign.

I used to get gentle ribbing from my SF bay area and NYC friends because I live in Orlando. That stopped when they finally sussed out that I work half as many hours and have an income/cost of living ratio that's much healthier (including a place on the gulf coast).

In the end, I get the same mass media/entertainment that they do and have access to a convenient international airport. I probably see more Broadway shows and visit more museums than my NYC friends and spend more time in wine country than my SF Bay friends.

I get that part of living in a coastal elite warren is the day to day exposure to all the other hip interesting folks that you carefully avoid eye contact with as you go about your day, but, lord help me, I've developed a soft spot for Florida-Man.

I work half as many hours and have an income/cost of living ratio that's much healthier

My wife and I have good friends who moved from Salem to Clearwater FL. One member of the couple managed a small theater in Salem - which is to say *the* small theater in Salem - and was concerned that he might not find the same level of cultural opportunity in Clearwater.

There are, like, 10 theater companies in Clearwater.

They torture us with pictures of them hanging out on the beach in February. They ain't never coming back.

It ain't easy being elite.

i don't mind being a coastal elite, but i wish the money was a little better.

Certainly we all know that the Koch brothers, not to mention Warren Buffett, live on the coasts. They must; after all, they have all that money....

tech, at the very high end, is san fran and to a lesser extent boston

If course, the reason for that is really, really simple:
Stanford (and UC Berkeley) and MIT
In short, you invest in education for your residents.

And you give them the space to use what they have learned to do something new. (Anybody know if there are figures on how many high tech start-ups' staff were getting Food Stamps in the first months?)

"If you live in Illinois, Connecticut or Rhode Island, the chances are you know someone who is not happy. Not happy at all.

Around a quarter of the population living in these regions have described them each as the 'worst possible state to live in', according to a Gallup survey.
Rhode Island, Connecticut and Illinois are the 'worst possible states to live in' (but Louisiana and Mississippi aren't much better)


• Republicans' satisfaction on four key measures has grown in past year
• Democrats' satisfaction with moral and ethical climate drops 14 points

Political Splits Widen on Satisfaction With Life in U.S.

russell: "There are, like, 10 theater companies in Clearwater."

There are a gazillion theater companies in Florida. People retire and decide to scratch an itch. And then there are the choirs and orchestras.

Orlando has the added ingredient of the theme parks. Imagine being a creative performer type making a living in a super buttoned down environment like Disney. No wonder that we have one of the oldest continuously held fringe festivals in the US ... not to mention Gay Days and all the drag queen shows.

And we are starting to get some pretty good restaurants.

I'm not saying that we're a cultural feast ... we only have one really good independent movie theater and the live music venues for small alternative acts are few and far between ... but the impression that folks get when they visit a chain restaurants in Touristan ain't the full picture.

"There are a gazillion theater companies in Florida. People retire and decide to scratch an itch. And then there are the choirs and orchestras."

The untold benefits of Social Security and Medicare.

And we are starting to get some pretty good restaurants.

I would be extremely grateful if you would list a few, Pollo. When I was in Orlando a few years ago it seemed to be all mediocre chains, and even the "posh" hotel restaurant wasn't much cop. I have friends who live there, and are agitating for me to come back, and I would love to give them some recommendations (not to mention benefit from them myself in due course).

GftNC ...

To be sure, you can get a bad meal in Orlando and we are the hometown for Darden Restaurant Group (I apologize on behalf of O'town for unleashing Olive Garden and Red Lobster in an unsuspecting world), but there are some bright spots ...

Here are five current or recent James Beard Foundation Award semi-finalists:

Chef Kathleen Blake - The Rusty Spoon

Chef Scott Hunnel - Victoria & Albert's at Disney's Grand Floridian Resort & Spa

Chef Brandon McGlamery - Luma on Park

James and Julie Petrakis - The Ravenous Pig

Chef Hari Pulapaka - Cress

(Full disclosure: James and Julie Petrakis are clients of my firm)

If you are vegetarian, Cress is probably your best choice, but in all candor, our best vegetarian restaurants are cheap eats downtown.

Out of curiosity, what was the posh hotel restaurant that you referenced.

Can't remember anything about the hotel, Pollo, but if I find out I'll let you know. In the meantime, thanks so much for the recommendations. Any steers to good ethnic (i.e. mexican, middle eastern, greek, cuban etc) places would also be welcome.

i'm sure they are. but i never hear wingnuts complaining about them.

We have plenty of wingnuts. No need to worry. Portland also has a bit of a disreputable reputation for being a "overly white (nationalist)" as it were.

We also have a good deal of agriculture throughout the state.

Nobody's perfect.

wj: I thought Buffet lived in Omaha, or were you being tongue-in-cheek?

Bobby, definitely tongue firmly in cheek. When the richest man in America, for a lot of years of my lifetime, was in Nebraska (i.e. right in the middle of "fly-over" country), it's hard to take seriously arguments that the elites are on the coasts....

Mexican: Frontera Cocina

Middle Eastern: Bosphorous

Greek: Greek Corner (it's in a little eclectic antique area on a lake and down the street from a dessert spot called Better than Sex)

Cuban: Black Bean Deli

When the richest man in America, for a lot of years of my lifetime, was in Nebraska (i.e. right in the middle of "fly-over" country), it's hard to take seriously arguments that the elites are on the coasts....

Silly wj, "rich" and "elite" are not equivalent categories, by a very long shot.

"Silly wj, "rich" and "elite" are not equivalent categories, by a very long shot."

This.

Old money ivy league will look down on new money all day long. I've had self made clients who have tried to break into what passes for "society" here in old money Florida (Tampa and Miami mostly). It's like watching a slow motion car accident.

When the richest man in America, for a lot of years of my lifetime, was in Nebraska...

but does he eat avocado toast?

Or arugula?

Does he drink chai, or matcha?

JanieM: ... "rich" and "elite" are not equivalent categories ...

I can't tell whether you're being snarky or sincere, Janie -- but ain't it great when you're right either way?

FWIW, "elite" originally connoted "chosen" rather than "superior", though I suspect "the elite" were always the ones doing the choosing.

Also FWIW, here is one of my favorite quotes of all time:

I believe in aristocracy, though — if that is the right word, and if a democrat may use it. Not an aristocracy of power, based upon rank and influence, but an aristocracy of the sensitive, the considerate and the plucky. Its members are to be found in all nations and classes, and all through the ages, and there is a secret understanding between them when they meet. They represent the true human tradition, the one permanent victory of our queer race over cruelty and chaos. Thousands of them perish in obscurity, a few are great names. They are sensitive for others as well as themselves, they are considerate without being fussy, their pluck is not swankiness but power to endure, and they can take a joke.
That was E.M. Forster, who may or may not have been one of the "elite".

--TP

TP, in the sense in which the terms were being tossed around -- as in people in "flyover country" resenting what they think the people they think of as "coastal elites" think of people in "flyover country" -- you're probably right, I was being both serious and snarky, although it was a pretty throwaway comment, tossed out while I put the groceries away. (The trend continues.)

That was E.M. Forster, who may or may not have been one of the "elite".

Well yes, may or may not. In your usage and mine, it all depends on the definition, doesn't it?

I don't think the "coastal elites," if defined as those who supposedly look down on people in "flyover country," are defined by monetary wealth at all. It's an attitude thing (real or imagined). Maybe partly an education thing. I don't even think it's pollo's old money/new money, which is real enough but a different fault line.

Back to chores, I'm just playing around at this point.

People are provincial. European countries (including UK and Ireland, etc.) can teach us a lot about that. Not that we need to be taught, as is obvious.

"rich" and "elite" are not equivalent categories

Janie, you know that. And I know that. But they seem to get used fairly interchangeably by those who complain most about the "coastal elites." They, and most of the folks they know, aren't rich -- and their perception at least appears to be that everybody in (metropolitan) New York and California is.

They resent both being relatively poor, and being looked down upon. But they seem to think that the former is at least a significant cause of the latter.

wj -- this is a blog comment thread, not a sociology research project, so unless I had time and inclination to do a lot of google digging (I don't), I can't cite anything but impressions and anecdata from e.g. my annual or oftener trips to Ohio, where it seems to be far more about attitudes and cultural factors than about wealth.

I also think that a lot of our impression of this phenomenon is filtered through the media, and I do mean filtered.

Anecdote.

A couple of years ago, thinking I might want my own website someday, I acquired a domain name. I knew nothing about the process (a topic in itself), but when I looked into it I found that there were all these relatively new domains that I didn't know existed, one of which was dot-wtf.

I just had to have me one of those. "janie.wtf" was taken, along with a couple of other obvious ones, but I ended up with one that I rather like, if only I could find time to do something with it:

ikeepwondering dot wtf

A couple of Ohio trips ago I told one of my relatives, to whom I'm very close despite our political differences, about my domain, as just a funny story. (Clever name, huh? and all that.)

My relative pondered this information for about twenty-four hours and then informed me that this was just another example of the vast left-wing conspiracy to destroy America.

This has nothing to do with wealth.........

Pollo is of course right about the probably age-old phenomenon of old money v new money, though I think this has very little to do with the modern use of "elites". (Thanks Pollo for recommendations, by the way).

But I must say, based on the mood music of everything we observe being said (in election years and otherwise), "elites" seems to cover whatever the particular aggrieved at the particular moment want it to cover. FWIW, my impression is overwhelmingly that it is not generally to do with wealth, but more to do with a) higher education, b) "prestigious" jobs and last but definitely not least, c) actual knowledge, scientific or otherwise. It seems to go very much against the tenor of the times that people should be able to claim knowledge, based on facts, and be able to demonstrate the basis of their opinions. People who cannot do so, dispute the very concept of provable fact, and resent those who have these skills at their disposal, seem to me to be the population which is being manipulated to resent the "elites". And it is in the interests of the manipulators that these "elites" are never properly defined, so that they can be whichever hate group the target audience is made to feel inadequate by at any given moment.

Apart from this, Janie: thanks for Alice, and I love ikeepwondering dot wtf. When you finally decide what to do with it, it's bound to be popular!

GftNc,

That is the most elitist explanation of what elite means I have ever read. It is a perfect example. They believe they are better educated, have more important jobs, and, if course, their opinions are based on provable fact.

Everyone else just hates them because they are better educated, smarter and wealthier which by definition makes them right.

Not really.

Coastal elites is a term for the attitude perfectly displayed in your comment.

Marty,
Of course I was aware that was a possible interpretation of what I was trying to say. But do you seriously dispute that, for example, emotion has replaced rational discourse as a basis for opinion on political or social issues? Do you seriously dispute this when the CDC has been "discouraged" from using the terms "evidence-based" and "science-based" in their budget documents? Do you think the coal miners who believed Trump's promises on the coal industry were open to opinions from energy industry experts who adduced evidence to throw doubt on those promises, or do you concede that they probably thought they were just the smug, self-satisfied ravings of the elites?

Everyone else just hates them because they are better educated, smarter and wealthier which by definition makes them right.

Not really.

and here, I thought it was all about the arugula.

haha!!

The thing I find confusing in all of this BS is this.

My FB friend who I referred to upthread, and who resents all of us coastal elites with our arrogant ways, is one half of a professional gay couple. He's an attorney, his husband is a psychiatrist. They travel extensively, have a lovely home, participate in a very wide range of cultural activities and interests including sponsoring young people who are pursuing careers in theater.

If you took the phrase "lives in Cincinnati" out of that description, they pretty sound, stereotypically and almost cartoonishly, like what people seem to get on about when they talk about "elites".

They just don't live on the coast. So, somehow, they are regular folks and put-upon to boot, while my neighbors, who are cops nurses teachers and a retired guy who works part time at a local garden center, are coastal elites.

It's bullshit.

My point upthread was that the whole "coastal elite" thing is a bullshit myth. It's propagated to keep us all at each others' throats. It's divisive, harmful bullshit.

We're all just living our lives, just like you. Some of us think some of you are hayseed goobers. More than a few of you all think we're all arrogant assholes who couldn't find our own asses with both hands and a flashlight.

And it's all bullshit.

The folks who go on about the "coastal elites" are exactly like the folks who go on about "flyover country". They are both idiots judging other people based on stupid stereotypes.

"elites" seems to cover whatever the particular aggrieved at the particular moment want it to cover.

Despite Marty’s protestations, this.

They believe they are better educated, have more important jobs, and, if course, their opinions are based on provable fact.

right. exactly as 'flyover' people do.

And the more I think about it, Marty’s response that GftNC is behaving problematically like an elite exemplifies the sort of put-out elite-bashing we’re discussing. Who’s the better example? GftNC representing the elites or Marty representing the aggrieved?

There are people who value knowledge and expertise and acute analysis, and people who think "alternative facts" are just as good as real ones. I'm with the former group: if that makes me an elitist I'll live with the opprobrium.

Politic leanings aside, I like Obama's approach and hate Trump's.

Trump is the one from New York.

There are people who value knowledge and expertise and acute analysis, ...

And there are people who think knowledge, expertise, and analysis give them the ability and the right to manage other people's lives. A pox on technocrats.

Underlying a lot of this is the recognition that the coastal elites, many of whom I know, believe that they are superior intellectually, morally and ethically, thus having the right to decide how everyone else lives.

It's not that complicated. Dont those people in WV see what the experts said? Sure but that doesnt mean they all want the mines to close and go on welfare. Of course closing mines doesn't impact people in SF and Boston at all.

In the reverse, evangelicals believe God told us how to live and they only have the playbook.

So everyone feels put upon, except the tide seems to be that the coastal elites have an actual plan that may eventually work to impose their views on everyone.

And they are quite transparent that's their goal.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Blog powered by Typepad