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December 10, 2017

Comments

I liked the Brandenburg gate, JanieM, but it left me dry-eyed. (Maybe it wouldn't have, at another time).

The four little girls though....

My sister came back to Hong Kong from college in the states in 1965, and among the records she brought back (mainly Dylan) was Joan Baez singing Birmingham Sunday. It made a tremendous impression on me, and I've never forgotten it.

White Women Keep Fucking Us Over ...Jezebel, about Alabama and Moore.

They don't get it. Jezebel is the problem.

Checked some numbers, couldn't get the breakdown, but in Alabama the absolute numbers of blacks and the black percentage of the population of Alabama has been steadily increasing. Alabama is also majority women, around 52%. My guess is that the black women drive those numbers.

Capable black women, and men like Ellison, leave, get educated and comeback to Alabama, helping their mothers and sisters, organizing, recruiting, generating turnout.

Capable white women of Alabama leave, get educated and stay in NYC or SF, spitting on their mothers and sisters, never trying to reach or help them. And think they should get extra credit for leaving (3 million more votes!!!). And wonder why the abandoned white women in the middle of the country are ungrateful.

The Democratic Party has a huuuuge white women problem. And it ain't the ones who voted for Trump or Moore.

I can imagine those white women emigres in California telling their black sisters who stayed in Alabama: "But it's just so hard! Those people are horrible."

I would also guess that since white women progressives would be a minority in Alabama politics they don't want to come back and have a black boss. In California and NYC they can be a boss.

Both Smith and Ellison are committed to running in the 2018 primary.

The Star Tribune reported this morning that Ellison now says he will not run for the Senate seat.

Capable white women of Alabama leave, get educated and stay in NYC or SF, spitting on their mothers and sisters, never trying to reach or help them. And think they should get extra credit for leaving

This may be incomprehensible to you. But most people, most of the time, make decisions like these based on their personal economics. NOT based on ideology.

Ellison now says he will not run for the Senate seat.

A smart good man. He'd lose, be a target, and the primary fight would probably depress black turnout in the general, so Ellison would get blamed for Smith's loss.

I ain't asking the world. 57% of white women voted for Moore, 52% college educated. I believe, say based on gay marriage, the people can change, be convinced, gain some empathy.

Not all, maybe 10% of those white women, so it is 47% voting for Moore. That would be enough. Okay, maybe not, but it would help.

But you are not going to do it by lecturing them from Manhattan. You have to show up and hang around.

Or you can wait for the "demographics," black and latino women in the bad states to save you while you escape the hard work and cash in on the vibrant exciting homogenous coasts and give lipservice to anti-racism while using minorities to boost your careers and pocketbooks. Like Clinton.

Believe they know what's going on.

The same with Gillibrand in 2020, a loser, except in that case it will be the electoral college in combination with coastal disdain for flyover women.

It is worth pointing out that no Democratic candidate from the NE urban corridor has won the Presidency since Kennedy. And he managed it during the days when the Solid South still largely was, with the Senate Majority Leader from Texas on the ticket.

I disagree with you on the problem being "flyover women", though. I think it's broader than that, and the national Democratic Party still fails to realize just how much general animosity the rest of the country has towards the NE urban corridor. That translates into a lack of enthusiasm.

Over the last 25 years "Democrats" have made very substantial progress in the West. I claim that there are fundamental differences between Western Dems and NE urban corridor Dems, though.

coastal disdain for flyover women

just how much general animosity the rest of the country has towards the NE urban corridor

It seems to me that disdain flows in all sorts of directions.

Maybe it's time to give the whole "coasts vs flyover" thing a rest.

But you are not going to do it by lecturing them from Manhattan.

This, I agree with.

When Dean was chair of the DNC he pursued an explicit 50 state strategy. That was a good idea. The (D)'s have gotten lazy since then. It's time for them get off their behinds and get to work.

It seems to me that disdain flows in all sorts of directions.

It does. I cheerfully admit to a bias that says "The Easterners started it," but that's probably based on my personal experience. When I lived in the NE urban corridor 30 years ago, the disdain towards the rest of the country independent of politics was palpable. I tend to describe the Western attitude as less disdain and more resentment.

When Dean was chair of the DNC he pursued an explicit 50 state strategy. That was a good idea. The (D)'s have gotten lazy since then. It's time for them get off their behinds and get to work.

(1) I recommend Witwer and Schrager's The Blueprint: How the Democrats Won Colorado. (Full disclosure: I met many of the principals when I was working for the state legislature. They were cheerfully ignoring Dean as being far too Eastern-centered to be helpful.) In 2016, in the West, Dems flipped four legislative chambers, held their US Senate seats, and the governorships. As a registered Dem in a Western state, I'm really tempted to say, "Don't talk to me about lazy."

(2) One of the facts that I think is critical that is missed by the national Democratic Party, dominated by folks from east of the Mississippi, is that there are no Western states where blacks are the largest minority group (there are several where they're not the second-largest minority group). So long as the NE/Midwest/South are refighting the Civil War and Reconstruction, this is a problem. Consider the attitude of Chicago's black politicians towards the rapidly growing Hispanic minority there.

(3) Open bet for an adult beverage of choice: when Nancy Pelosi retires/dies, the NE Dems will spare no effort to make sure the new Speaker/Minority Leader is from the NE.

Keith Ellison for future Speaker/minority leader

Maybe it's time to give the whole "coasts vs flyover" thing a rest.

No. Consider it a metaphor or synecdoche or something, but I think it is critical and fractal.

Over at LGM, they went over the Alabama gerrymanded districts, where with roughly 40% of voters Democrats only got 1 Congressperson. They then analyzed a bit and decided that with a mandated minority and urban concentration they could maybe bump it up to two, still 1/3 less than is representative.

The Democratic Party absolutely must de-urbanize and disperse.

I don't want to hear anything about electoral college abolition or proportional representation etc because in our geographically biased system there is no conceivable path to a Democratic super-majority under current urban and coastal concentration. There is no path to 30 states or 60 Senators anymore and Republicans will retain their structural advantage and veto points. And Repubs understand the electoral math much better than Democrats.

Moving to Texas might lock the Presidency, but doesn't get the Senate or a progressive House, and even in Texas controlling the 5-6 urban areas wouldn't get enough to control redistricting.

We need rural and RedState Democrats, probably at least a third of the Party. We are not going to flip rural Repubs or marginals purple blue without Dems in Tyler and Amarillo.

Michael Cain: When I lived in the NE urban corridor 30 years ago, the disdain towards the rest of the country independent of politics was palpable.

Michael,

I ask sincerely and in all seriousness: can you give me an example or two of the "disdain towards the rest of the country" that people like me displayed? (I was living near Boston 30 years ago, and still do.)

--TP

Don't talk to me about lazy

you are exactly who I am *not* talking about.

When I say "lazy" I mean the (D) party at the national level, who I think are mostly talking to themselves these days.

there are no Western states where blacks are the largest minority group

you seem to assume that (D)'s are somehow unusually deferential to blacks. to the degree that that is so, IMO that's only in contrast to (R)'s, who are often quite hostile to them.

We are not going to flip rural Repubs or marginals purple blue without Dems in Tyler and Amarillo.

I suspect that there are already (D)'s in those places.

When I say "lazy" I mean the (D) party at the national level, who I think are mostly talking to themselves these days.

Maybe a link or something?

Let's not just make shit up. Democrats just won an election in Alabama. It was because people voted. It was because everyone on our side voted. It was because African-Americans, African-American women, came out and voted.

Let's practice 1) solidarity; 2) having each others' backs; 3) not trashtalking Democrats; 4) praising ourselves to high heavens when we've done anything good ...

Get the picture? Don't mean to be my usual nasty self, but a lot of folks here didn't really support the Best President of My Lifetime: Barack Obama. Sure you voted for him, but "criticizing from the left" was your game. Let's leave that alone until the Nazis go away.

Thanks.

Capable white women of Alabama leave, get educated and stay in NYC or SF, spitting on their mothers and sisters

Ah, McManus, equal-opportunity trash-talker, contemptuous of the whole world that isn't him.

Will we miss him when he's gone?

Try us and see.

Sheesh.

I don't know what thread to put this on, but here it is --- savaging the poor and middle class in our cities -- all to lick the testicles of the donors to the killer republican party:

https://www.villagevoice.com/2017/12/11/gop-tax-bill-could-obliterate-affordable-housing/

Mass evictions.

Read the Jezebel article, it's vicious and comtemptible. It is obvious that some feminists are in no way for all women, but are classist among other things.

And the comparison with blacks and black women in delivering their demographic, and the way they treat their marginals and difficult cases, say prisoners and drug victims, is dispositive.

One movement after delivers 95%+; the other after fifty years can't even deliver 50% of their demographic or protect abortion in Red States. Think the blacks in Alabama are monolithic? No evangelicals, no UMC, nor right of economic center? Yet they work with their neighbors and delver.

And it's real and serious, Harris vs Gillibrand. People will die.

Lemieux, son of a gun, backs Gillibrand. He is a white New Yorker.

Whatever, they couldn't deliver 50% against a monster like Moore. But not their fault, not her fault, at least they got rid of Franken. They're killing the party.

Some scattered thoughts:

What is it about the left that requires it to dissect every victory and figure out who was responsible? I suppose that when the right wins, they aren't worried about other demographics, but it does get tiresome.

I feel like Lemieux backs Gillibrand because he feels like 1) he needs to back someone who is actively fighting back against Trump and 2) he has to deal with lots of Bernie or Biden for pres. While the New Yorker dynamic might be there, I do think that Gillibrand is more out there. Maybe this is a warped perspective from being in Japan, and if Harris is doing more, I'd love to know about it.

I also fear that given the revanchist racism that the US is having to deal with, Harris's background would put limits on what she could do if she did win or even worse, prevent her from winning. We saw how Obama was in many ways imprisoned by his blackness, being unable to show anger, had to always argue for a compromise rather than go for the throat on occasion. I'd be afraid a similar dynamic would occur. Of course, I am partly surprised that Obama made it thru 2 terms w/o even a Squeaky Fromme like incident (though the Secret Service evidently had to deal with a lot more possibilities)

I also wonder if those people who voted for Moore or voted for Trump will, in the future, claim that they didn't. I realize Nixon is a long time ago, but I imagine that if you had run a poll of who did your vote for, you'd have a lot more people claiming they didn't vote for Nixon but actually did. Of course, people still tout their voting for Reagan. I hate to let those folks get off, but I'm also thinking I don't care who you voted for in the past, I'd just be happy you are ashamed to have done so and are going to stop doing it.

I ask sincerely and in all seriousness: can you give me an example or two of the "disdain towards the rest of the country" that people like me displayed?

oooh, let me! this is an easy one.

next time someone starts talking/writing about the south, see how long it takes before they mention inbreeding or laziness, or put on an exaggerated caricature of a southern accent and say something comically stupid with it.

hating on southerners is the one situation where northern and western liberals seem completely happy to forget everything they say about the evils of stereotyping and bigotry.

Maybe a link or something?

no link, but neither do I think I'm just making stuff up.

in 2016, local (D) organizations in many places - including the industrial midwest - asked for help from the national (D)'s and did not get it.

I'm not being critical of policies or individuals here, I'm making a comment about the strategic priorities of a national organization.

(D)'s need to get back to a 50 state focus. In my opinion.

I'm sure I appreciated Obama's presidency just as much as you, FWIW. But I'm not going to "only say nice things" about (D)'s as a party. It's actually not constructive to pretend that problems don't exist when they do.

hating on southerners is the one situation where northern and western liberals seem completely happy to forget everything they say about the evils of stereotyping and bigotry.

true

Lemieux, son of a gun, backs Gillibrand. He is a white New Yorker.

I don't know where he grew up (he might even be, gasp, a Canadian), but it appears he is now at the UW in Seattle, up here in the 48th Soviet of Washington.

appears he is now at the UW in Seattle

8 previous years 2009-2017 (2016?) adjunct at the College of St Rose in Albany. They closed his dept or something, IIRC, not so long ago. Glad he has landed a paying gig, although "lecturer?"

Saint Rose Cuts Faculty Maybe Dec 29 2016 according to this.

I don't make shit up.

He is a white New Yorker.

If you get 50 Americans in a room, statistically speaking about 3 of them will be New Yorkers.

Not coastal, not northeast corridor. Specifically, residents of the NYC metropolitan area.

Talking about New Yorkers as if they are some strange alien species is weird. A lot of Americans live in the NYC metro area. If you include folks who are from there but no longer live there, it's an even larger number of people.

It's a place. People live there. They have opinions. Maybe, get over it.

I don't care where people are from. Don't be an a$$hole, and we're good. The stupid people who bother me more than any, aside from people with lots of power (frex, Donald Trump) are the ones who live near me because I actually have to put up with them.

I also wonder if those people who voted for Moore or voted for Trump will, in the future, claim that they didn't. I realize Nixon is a long time ago, but I imagine that if you had run a poll of who did your vote for, you'd have a lot more people claiming they didn't vote for Nixon but actually did.

Well, I'm not proud of having voted for Nixon. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't have done so. But that's 20/20 hindsight at work. Based on what I knew at the time**, I still think it was a reasonable choice to have made.

** I was a student at Berkeley at the time, surrounded by hordes of McGovern enthusiasts. Many of whom were, on a variety of subjects, complete nut cases from the view of a conservative Republican. And, as you all know happens with any candidate, the craziness of a candidate's supporters will tend to rub off on him. Sometimes even if he shows no signs of embracing them, unless he obviously and explicitly rejects their support.

hating on southerners is the one situation where northern and western liberals seem completely happy to forget everything they say about the evils of stereotyping and bigotry.

True, I do see a lot of that.

On the other hand, Wednesday I was seeing a lot of other people posting comments on various blogs of "Roll Tide!" At least one was even an Ohio State fan! So it's a stereotype that at least some are able to get past, given a little motivation.

I don't care where people are from. Don't be an a$$hole, and we're good.

Bingo.

I'm sure I appreciated Obama's presidency just as much as you, FWIW. But I'm not going to "only say nice things" about (D)'s as a party. It's actually not constructive to pretend that problems don't exist when they do.

I've read a million different reasons attempting to explain why the Clinton lost the 2016 election, including mistakes that the party made. There's nothing wrong with evaluating the data to try to figure out what went wrong, but it's incredibly difficult to account for a number of things that we haven't really gotten a grasp of yet. Some of these things include voter suppression, tampering in the electoral process, media bias, Comey's unfortunate remarks.

One thing that is quite clear to me that was happening before the election were the sentiments shared here by several people that Hillary Clinton gave too many speeches to Wall Street audiences, that she used the word superpredator so was a racist, that she was a warmonger, that she was unwise in her email server management, and that, basically, she was a crook and a liar.

I don't think that all decisions made by the party are perfect either (mostly because I believe that humans and human institutions are generally imperfect), and it would be useful to make adjustments in light of whatever mistakes are discovered by looking at actual facts and data. However, no amount of money could have changed the dynamic that Eric Loomis has described as "politics as tattoo."

‘Wow… never seen a church like this before,” Stepp said.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-showman

If this story becomes a movie, it would only be right for the actress saying that line to read it with an outsized Kentucky accent, despite that this type of crypto-religious, uniquely American mixture of pantsless jesus-speechifying while laying on of hands at the after-parties seems to have spread to all 50 states and the White House, voiced in all of the local palavers.

"hating on southerners is the one situation where northern and western liberals seem completely happy to forget everything they say about the evils of stereotyping and bigotry."

I'll cop to this. I thought proud political incorrectness was all the style these days.

When I'm hearing or reading, say Lee Atwater, his own self born in South Carolina, telling us there are so many clever ways of re-introducing words that rhyme with "chigger" back into our political discourse, I'm most likely to spend the rest of my daily routine talking to myself with his lines voiced in my best Strother Martin or Denver Pyle caricatures.

That can morph pretty quickly into my Lindsay Graham/Blanche Dubois mashup emitting the vapors over whatever Barack Obama was up to, at which
point I get on the elevator in my building, in Eddie Murphy black face doing his white guy voice, and ask whichever of my white neighbors whom I might suspect of being closet rump supporters (none, I suspect) for their birth certificates, which must be presented embossed word-for-word in icing on a bundt cake, to keep with current events.

Then I respond to those voices in my best Andy Taylor conciliatory Barn-you-got-to-realize-that-folks-everywheres-just-folks-no matter-their-appearance-or-the-way-they-talk-or-where-they-was-raised-and-they's-all-treated-the-same-under-the-law patois, because I remember when the republican conservative wurlitzer went after Andy Griffith late in his life for being out of step with Nixon's southern strategy.

Neighbors passing by the door to my apartment must think one of two thoughts: "Either there is a crazy person (folks at OBWI can attest) living in our midst, or there are too many people living in that space. Will you listen to them go on?

Most probably they think to themselves: "All of his impressions sound like Kirk Douglas doing Rich Little."

Other days, all they might hear for weeks on end is either Christopher Walken "It's a thing ... I do. Two mice ... fell .. into a bucket of cream. One MOUSE .. demanded more COWbell" ....

...or maybe John or George Beatle, going all skouse Liverpudlian and whinging about their first wife, Paul, and his overpowering bass guitar and makin them wear suits in the early days.

Or maybe any number of Scorcese/De Niro/Pesci low-level mafia/republican types passing rump-care in the dead ... and "dead" is what I mean .. of night, in Joisey.

I love New York City, where you can be served in a Chinatown restaurant by an Italian kid with a New Yoak tongue in his head and then cross over into Little Italy and buy a cannoli off the street from an Asian woman with that soft, shy, maybe Hong Kong English.

Or maybe Cliven Bundy raging against the Feds, cept his voice always comes out with stupid ill-learning in Sam Elliot's rich cowboy steak sauce twang, which I don't think does Bundy and his gets the injustice they deserve.

Or maybe any number of republican Texas Congressmen raging in Yosemite Sam's mighty rootin-tootin presentation.

Or maybe when I'm with my baseball buddy who grew up in Minnesota, for some reason I talk like any number of characters in the movie "Fargo".

I grew up back East mostly in Pittsburgh, and for awhile outside of New York City, the former of which I guarantee you has the oddest native accent/inflections this side of the clicking language of the San Bushmen, and when I return from frequent trips there, I can't stop asking "Youns goin up taan?"

I've lived in the Denver area for going on 40 years and I love the West. I miss the trees back East but when I'm back there, I miss the big sky, and my horse.

i don't own a horse. That's how much I miss him.

Thing is about Denver and the entire east slope of Colorado, EVERYONE, none of whom are natives, talks the same. Every accent is leveled, which I find dispiriting. It's like Colorado has checkpoints at the border and all out-of-staters, including Mexican immigrants (after one generation) and including me, are ordered to stick out their tongues and have them ironed flat for maximum sameness.

This Omarosa asshole, the ump favorite for making a federal career out of being as asshole, recently removed outside the fence surrounding the White House. Being a rump lovely, I'm sure she talk funny too.

I would model her on the radical leftist caricature of Laureen Hobbes from the movie "Network", raging about the syndication percentages and residuals she is owed from the Mao-tse-Tung Hour, or whatever. I can't find the full clip anymore, but a bit of it starts at 1.09 in this clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cSGvqQHpjs

In short:

"I don't care where people are from. Don't be an a$$hole, and we're good."

But when they are a##holes, the dialect they say it in is fair game

Say it in every dialect.

I'll bet this WH spokesperson talks funny:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/12/do-republicans-believe-their-own-lies/

On the other hand, they removed some of the combination of Mike Pence-flat-voweled-flyover speak and cracker dialect from the tax bill and made it more mainstream American:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/12/provisions-that-bleed-grad-students-and-the-sick-are-struck-from-final-tax-bill/

Ngo and sapient:

LGM, Unfogged, and a few other places have become actively dangerous places since the election, completely cultish in the bitter smug righteousness, dismissing with vociferous and gleeful contempt not only everything to their right, but vast and ever growing populations and writers to their left. OTOH, they give a lot of positive reinforcement to those who share their priors, solipsism, confirmation bias, and epistemic closure, rationalizing malice with logic and sarcasm, flattering those who will share their sense of nearly infinite enemies. Very bad for the heart and mind.

Link from Farley: "Kentucky State Representative Dan Johnson shot himself in the face last night. Here’s the rest of the story." In itself containing a joke

Comment in thread:"Re: Johnson. Good riddance."

These people laugh and cheer about the death of those who disagree with them.

I read them like I read about plague and terrorism. They're truly sick.

bitter smug righteousness, dismissing with vociferous and gleeful contempt not only everything to their right, but vast and ever growing populations and writers to their left

cool.

Matt Tabibi, Greenwald and the entirety of the Intercept, all of Crooked Timber and all its commenters, all of Jacobin, anyone who criticizes Clinton or Obama..the enemies list of LGM is becoming almost universal. Apparently the only ones they have any time for are the most rabid centrists at VOX, Slate, some of WaPo, a little of the NYT.

A place that only accepts the most corporate and anodyne of media and dismisses with rage all outsider voices is not healthy

I've read a million different reasons attempting to explain why the Clinton lost the 2016 election

Same here. I'm not trying to unpack the 2016 election.

IMO the national (D) party structure is insufficiently responsive to regional and local organizations. That's my opinion. Full stop.

Doesn't mean they're evil or stupid, just means that IMO they could do a better job of working with regional and local organizations.

Being a rump lovely, I'm sure she talk funny too.

sounds like she's gonna talk about some funny business, at least.

When I read people making derogatory remarks about New Yorkers as against the rest of the country, I always remember Sarah Palin in a campaign speech somewhere (the Midwest? the South?) saying "It's so great to be here in the Real America!", and Jon Stewart showing it and saying "Wow, I wonder how Osama bin Laden feels, knowing he attacked the wrong America, the fake America!"

I understand the point some are making, and that New Yorkers and the NE in general can be superior and dismissive, but still, it seems an incredibly divisive, bigoted attitude to buy into, like you're doing the peddlers of hate and exclusion's job for them.

I think that there's a tendency, everywhere in the country, to believe that you and your neighbors are "real Americans". And, by extension, that everybody who isn't like you, who doesn't think like you and those around you**, has misunderstood what the country is all about.

The main difference with NYC (assumed, probably to the horror of residents in neighboring areas, to be identical to all of New England) is that, as a media center, it has a bigger megaphone. So the rest of the country has always known what people there think. Whereas the Sarah Palin's of the world have only relatively recently managed to get their view visible.

** I confess that this may also be why *I* think I'm a conservative, while some from elsewhere in the country find that laughable. Compared to those around me, I definitely am. Compared to those in some other areas, I suspect, not so much.

GftNC: Let's have at it

From Unfogged, I can do this all day.

"44: Dog-whistles for the "front row kids."Arnade and his McDonald's buddy JD Vance are both in for some very aggressive skull-gnawing.

Posted by: JP Stormcrow"

So what is going on here, especially conflating Chris Arnade with JD Vance.

JD Vance
is the author of Hillbilly Nation, from West Virgina, contemptuous of his roots and relatives, Republican, thought of running for office, married to a law clerk for John Roberts, worked in venture capital for Peter Thiel. Fucking bad news.

Linked at Unfogged with Chris Arnade

"Arnade worked on Wall Street for 20 years, with the last position being on foreign trading desk at Citigroup.[3] As the financial crisis of 2007–2008 unfolded, Arnade became more disillusioned with his industry, and began riding the subway to its last stop and then walking home, which often led him through the Bronx, where he talked to people and began taking their pictures.[1][7] He also did volunteer work in the Bronx, with the Hunts Point Alliance for Children, which led him into engagement with people who lived there.[8] In 2012 his mother died, and that same year Citi shut down the trading desk he was working on due to new regulations.[4] He accepted a buyout from Citi in 2012 and retired and began to spend all his time exploring the lives of poor and working-class people.[1][9] To deal with the reduced income, his family moved from Brooklyn to upstate New York."

You can google Arnade for his photographs and articles. Mostly he shows compassion for white losers in the Midwest, along with blacks in the Bronx. I guess that's unforgivable. He also has a theme of the people destroyed by Obama and corporate Democrat policies, and too much sympathy for hurting Trump voters. But close to a saint.

Just one example for the carnival of hate that is those blogs. Took me a 5 seconds to find.

Who should I try to get along with, find common ground with, the good solid Democrats of LGM and Unfogged, or Arnade and the Left?

Look up the biographies of nearly every actor/actress, writer, musician painter, sculptor, performance artist in America who has ended up in the coastal elite metropolises, and see how nearly every one of them was born and raised in so-called flyover country.

Salt of the Earth.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/03/160314-flyover-country-origin-language-midwest

Interestingly, one of the first to use the term "flyover country" in print was one my favorite American writers, Thomas McGuane, who grew up in Michigan, ranches in Montana, but has seen plenty of both coasts.

The infamous New Yorker cover depicting the New York myopia regarding the rest of the country was in fact a satire of the rest of the country's opinion of the satire of New Yorker's myopia about flyover country.

https://www.google.com/search?q=famous+new+yorker+cover+of+flyover+country&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS774US774&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=6ENcyfEHfPk4dM%253A%252CaPLpuoLsiguIrM%252C_&usg=__k4gkAJ05jmk30qcGuzp6J18Cz6Y%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi69PjDnIrYAhVNz2MKHVmYDtMQ9QEIQzAG#imgrc=_

The cartoonist, the late Saul Steinberg, was born in Romania and fled there in 1936 to New York City where he could be referred to by Americans, mostly those outside NYC, as "cosmopolitan".

Given the respective historical implications of the words "cosmopolitan" and "flyover country", I hope to be mistaken for the former when the right-wing begins its Anschluss.

Just a thought from the far side of the country.

I have the distinct impression that, in the view of residents of Manhattan, the residents of the other 4 boroughs of NYC are every bit as exotic as the residents of the rest of the country. Can someone closer confirm or refute?

"recently managed to get their view visible."

of Russia?

Couldn't resist

Bob, who is doing the conflating between Vance and Arnade?

Unfogged?

Give a cite.

New Yorkers and the NE in general can be superior and dismissive

Everybody thinks they have the special sauce. It's not a NY or NE thing.

Can someone closer confirm or refute?

The phrase you're looking for is "bridge and tunnel". As in "bridge and tunnel people".

Like I said, everybody thinks they have the special sauce. Nobody has the special sauce.

I confess that this may also be why *I* think I'm a conservative, while some from elsewhere in the country find that laughable.

Yep. As I've been known to say, speaking just about Colorado, in Boulder I'm somewhat right of center; in my Denver suburb, I'm somewhat left of center; and out on the eastern plains near the Kansas border, I'm a flaming liberal.

New York has been captured by the great America commercial finance capitalism leveling influences of the outer boroughs and the suburbs of flyover America:

https://ny.curbed.com/2017/8/24/16190884/vanishing-new-york-jeremiah-moss-photo-essay

Great read, his book.

I've walked pretty much the length and breadth of NYC and lot of Brooklyn in the 1960s and 1970s and just recently twice.

It's nothing at street level like it once was.

I love it still, for Singapore-type reasons, but not as much as I loved walking thru big noisy, dirty, dangerous Manila, where the human carnival is right in my face, even if I am running from it.

I know it's a little warped, but I like it now that I can walk thru Morningside Park on the Upper West side of Harlem, even after dark. But I kind of liked NOT being able to walk thru it decades ago, even during daylight hours.

There is less urban edge to wholesale gentrification, whether it's rump tower or an upscale Starbucks filled with liberal Democrats.

To repeat, for those who can't read or open another tab, it was number 44 on the top post, "President Monster." Won't get any pushback there Arnade hating isn't notable:

From Unfogged, I can do this all day.

"44: Dog-whistles for the "front row kids."Arnade and his McDonald's buddy JD Vance are both in for some very aggressive skull-gnawing.

Posted by: JP Stormcrow"

Link although they can edit and change over there if they see this

I think Arnade sat down with Vance for a lunch once. But I guess this is the kind of thing makes Arnade hateable

Why Trump Voters Are Not Idiots

Speaking of cultural and regional distinctions (we were, right?) can somebody tell me why a guy from Alabama - Roy Moore, for instance - wears a cowboy hat?

Cowboy hats show up in the weirdest places. Places that haven't seen a real live cow in living memory. Or even ever.

Andrade sounds like an interesting guy, I will have to check him out.

OK, so I read the Andrade piece mcmanus linked to. Here is my reaction.

I used to live in a crappy part of Salem MA, in a former Irish and French Canadian immigrant area that is now a Dominican Republic immigrant area. I lived next to the parking lot for a big industrial complex. Used to be factories, now it's office space, when I lived there it was kind of in-between. Some light manufacturing, a factory outlet place, etc.

One of my roommates at the time was a grad student. Masters in History program at BU, then BC. He had sort of discovered the Frankfurt School folks and was really interested in all of that social criticism / critical thinking stuff.

He had a plan. He was going to go get a job at one of the manufacturing outfits still in the industrial complex. He wanted to understand what it was like to live the life of a working person.

He was still planning on finishing his degree program, and eventually entering academia as a profession. He just wanted this... experience.

So, Andrade kind of reminds me of my friend, at that point in his life.

FWIW

i have never heard of Arnade before.

but i'm thoroughly sick of apologetics for - and anthropological studies of - Trump voters. Trump has always been a total and obvious scumbag; but they voted for him anyway, and even now they love him. that's entirely on them. and making excuses for their choice feels like condescension.

So unlike the narrative quoted up at 2:25 you think Andrade is indulging in a kind of Slum Tourism

Well, whatever makes you feel superior.

Well, whatever makes you feel superior.

back atcha.

And actually, my friend was not engaging in slum tourism. He was interested in understanding what the lives of working people were like. It wasn't part of his experience, he wanted to try to make it part of his experience.

Calling it "slum tourism" gives no credit to what was a sincere interest on his part in understanding what the lives of people who weren't like him were like.

I have no particular criticism of Andrade, I appreciate his interest in getting out of his bubble and talking to people who aren't like him. I appreciate his advocacy of their interests. I appreciate and respect what appears to be a sincere effort to give them a voice.

And, what I personally experience from his work is him giving everyone else in the world a freaking lecture. It sounds like he as Discovered Poverty, and wants to use his access to a media channel to make us all understand what he has seen.

He kind of wants to Explain It All to us. And yes, that is a somewhat condescending point of view.

Some of us already have a clue about what poverty is, and about what people who don't live in prosperous places live with. Even if we don't live there ourselves. It's great that Andrade has had his epiphany, but many of us are sort of already there. Or, close enough to already there that we don't need his instruction.

I have no beef with Andrade, nor do I think he is going to teach me much of anything. I have the same opinion of Vance.

"slum" ?

the average Trump voter is not a poor person and doesn't live in a slum. Clinton voters were more likely to be poor than Trump voters.

Arnade wants to talk about elites vs workign class folk. and he tried to do that with a "Trump voter" frame. but if Arnade wanted a realistic picture of an average Trump voter he would've shown a picture of a middle-aged white guy who lives in the rural suburbs and makes $75K.

at this point i realize i don't know who bob was actually replying to.

Look up the biographies of nearly every actor/actress, writer, musician painter, sculptor, performance artist in America who has ended up in the coastal elite metropolises, and see how nearly every one of them was born and raised in so-called flyover country.

Isn't that why you get elite metropolises - because talented people move to them from all over the country?

hey, bob!

How are you? I only wrote to point out that S. Lemieux is now a resident of my state. He also attended some school in Montreal for his undergrad years....

Greenwald is insufferable, and not a lefty.
Jacobin is OK at times, awful at times.
JD Vance is a conservative grifter.
LGM is pretty good, esp. Loomis. The commenters seem to be getting a bit insular.

Maps....hey, I've got maps!

Ya'll have a good one, y'hear?

One big union! One big strike!

Calling it "slum tourism" gives no credit to what was a sincere interest on his part in understanding what the lives of people who weren't like him were like.

But Russell, you ignore the fact that, if someone has an ideology which explains everything, he don't have any need for experience of other people's lives. Because he already understands the (social) world perfectly.

And, since someone like that understands it perfectly, for him it actually would be "slum tourism."

Read the Arnade article. There's some good stuff in there, and then there is drek like this:

How does a voter chose a candidate? They come up with a probability-adjusted valuation. They multiple the chance of each outcome versus the value of that outcome. The result is one number. They chose the candidate that maximizes that number for them.

and moving on, he writes:

The only thing they can do, faced with that, is break the fucking system. And they are going to try. Either by Trump or by some other way.

But that is not their only choice. And they did not vote for Trump to "break the system". He is not breaking it, he is abusing it.

Speaking of cultural and regional distinctions (we were, right?) can somebody tell me why a guy from Alabama - Roy Moore, for instance - wears a cowboy hat?

Disregarding the use of the hat as a political and/or style statement, a cowboy hat or something similar in basic construction is useful when you're going to spend time riding/hiking in the brush. The wide brim shades face, ears, and neck. The brim is stiff enough that when you push through brush, you can tip your head forward and protect your face and ears. It keeps rain from running down the back of your collar. If you have to work on something, you can take it off and put a half-dozen parts or little tools in it to keep from losing them. If you're fly-fishing, it makes it harder -- but not impossible -- to hook your own ear with the fly. Cowboy hats are easy to get.

When my father did field audits for the insurance company in outstate Nebraska, he wore his dress boots and an "owners" Stetson so that everyone knew he was there to do things related to money. When I spent time in outstate Nebraska when I was in college, scuffed-up boots and a hat were both practical for field work as well as protective coloration.

Note that if you're riding a horse, the horse will find an opportunity to drag you through tall brush or low-handing tree limbs. It's just one of the things that horses do to remind you that you're up there on sufferance.

Cleek:but if Arnade wanted a realistic picture of an average Trump voter he would've shown a picture of a middle-aged white guy who lives in the rural suburbs and makes $75K.

Here's cleek: statistics and polls and analysis shows that the median Trump voter makes $75k

Here's Andrade: See this picture, this guy here. He voted for Trump. Here's his story.

Think about the difference for a while.

Last Days of Roy Moore Vanity Fair but probably written by a white guy. I'm infamous for long quotes because people don't follow links and thread space is cheap. Long, lots of other good stuff at the link. Via Naked Capitalism, another place LGM hates.

The defeat of Roy Moore will also be cast as a major defeat for Steve Bannon and Bannonism, which, of course, it was. But not, I suspect, as much as people think. I’d been to lots of small towns with boarded-up storefronts, but I’d never seen anything quite like Brundidge, Alabama, a town of 1,972 in Pike County. On the main thoroughfare, over which hung tinsel stars for Christmas, two out of three stores appeared to be empty—not boarded up, just tidy and deserted. From mounted loudspeakers came the strains of “Frosty the Snowman,” which reverberated on the walls of the empty storefronts on the unpeopled street. As I discovered, though, there can be something more depressing than “Frosty the Snowman” reverberating on the walls of empty storefronts on an unpeopled street. It’s when the CD player starts to skip.

To the extent that Bannonism is true—that removing buffer after buffer that once protected American workers from the unbridled global market has ravaged places like Brundidge—it is unlikely to fade away.

People sometimes state that even poor Americans are rich relative to people in other countries, but it’s no longer true, if it ever was. In one rural area outside of Troy, I looked for people to interview—unsuccessfully, as I was turned down—on a road in which a new trailer was the fanciest residence in the area. The rest were tiny trailers with corrugated metal siding rusted from rain. On some, the windows were boarded up. On one, attempts to arrest the decay by putting up plywood had not kept pace with the deterioration, and water damage had warped the siding, causing panels to bend outward at the edges and the bottom third of one panel to rot away, with yellowish insulation cascading out. On another, the bottoms of the windows were giving way, and the door had been repaired with copious duct tape.

It’s integrated poverty: black and white live side by side. It’s non-voting poverty, too, because voting is primarily a wealthy and middle-class practice. But the hopes for places like that will rest in employment that doesn’t require outstanding skill, just a willingness to work diligently for a living wage, as people once could in the mills of the South. That means doing more to protect them in ways that our well-meaning but inflexible ruling class can’t really imagine. Roy Moore was not going to help these Americans. But the worry is that Doug Jones, well-meaning as he is, won’t do so either. And I hope that worry is wrong.

"Isn't that why you get elite metropolises - because talented people move to them from all over the country?"

Precisely the point.

But you get left-behind flyover country too in an upwardly mobile meritocracy wherein talent moves like moths to the brightest light.

What could be more American? Talented finance capitalists rarely stay where they can't go home again, too.

Of course, Johnny Carson had more reason to wax nostalgic for his hometown than say, Tennessee Williams or Allen Ginsburg, though the second in that list had Harper Lee to kind of take up the slack for him.

Ginsburg grew up in Paterson, New Jersey.

Warren Buffet stayed put. Walker Percy and Flannery O'Conner too.

On the other hand, the small, false, shallow, untalented, grifting gods like Falwell, Robertson, and Ralph Reed, to name a few, rack up the frequent flier miles to Washington D. C., but I wouldn't be surprised if they were merely following the expensive hookers.

McManus quoted:

"That means doing more to protect them in ways that our well-meaning but inflexible ruling class can’t really imagine. Roy Moore was not going to help these Americans. But the worry is that Doug Jones, well-meaning as he is, won’t do so either. And I hope that worry is wrong."

Me too. Sometimes sadism on the one side and benign neglect on the other turn out to have similar consequences.

When I lived in the NE urban corridor 30 years ago, the disdain towards the rest of the country independent of politics was palpable.

Well, Michael, I lived in the South for decades. Alabama and Tennessee. Let me assure you that the disdain for the NE, independent of politics, was also palpable, at a minimum.

I am very tired of being told I have to more sympathetic to southerners, inland westerners, etc. by people who don't seem to ever tell the southerners and inland westerners to be sympathetic to us coastal types.

Besides, I am sympathetic, to southerners anyway, just not in the way you would like.

We need rural and RedState Democrats, probably at least a third of the Party. We are not going to flip rural Repubs or marginals purple blue without Dems in Tyler and Amarillo.

Well, OK. But those Democratic voters (and strong candidates) in TX and TN (where the chance of picking up Corker's seat is excellent) and elsewhere are going to be exactly the kind of centrists you seem to despise.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/paul-ryan-birth-rate-people

Expect Trent Franks to explain away his soliciting of his staff to bear his children as his modest way of fattening up the SS trust fund.

LGM, Unfogged, and a few other places have become actively dangerous places since the election, completely cultish in the bitter smug righteousness, dismissing with vociferous and gleeful contempt not only everything to their right, but vast and ever growing populations and writers to their left.

bob mcmanus, I think that people might feel the same about you as any number of people have questioned why I would feel you have something to add here. I don't know if that gives you pause, it would me if I were you.

Think about the difference for a while.

ok, done.

one is a fact. the other is a story that appeals to people who want their biases confirmed.

In New York City, a southern or western man, gay or straight, can pretty much purchase a custom cake anywhere with a showgirl girl hidden inside and ready to leap out of it into Jaime Dimon's lap, whereas in the South and in Lakewood, Colorado you may or not get the cake, but if you are a gay man, they try to sell you the girl separately.

This week's almost over.

... a willingness to work diligently for a living wage, as people once could in the mills of the South. That means doing more to protect them in ways that our well-meaning but inflexible ruling class can’t really imagine...

I'm not part of the ruling class, but I can't really imagine it either. How do well-meaning and flexible blog commentators want to achieve this?

Link from Farley: "Kentucky State Representative Dan Johnson shot himself in the face last night. Here’s the rest of the story." In itself containing a joke

Farley teaches at the Uni of Kentucky. So, his reaction might be influenced by this

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-showman

with respect to LJ's comment at 5:22 pm--

I now find myself often quitting looking at comment threads as soon as I see a bob mcmanus comment. That's true at other blogs as well as here.

How do well-meaning and flexible blog commentators want to achieve this?

Attack corporate and grifting Democrats as hard as as often as racist sexist Republicans. Hope you get company. If you don't have company skip the second part, because you aren't needed in that fight.

I don't know if that gives you pause

Not a second, after 16 years, after Klein and Yglesias supported the illegal invasion of Iraq and then were forgiven;after HRC the same; after Obama sold out to Wall Street...I understand better than they do why Democrats and liberals prefer to fight Republicans than to engage their Left.

It pays better.

rack up the frequent flier miles to Washington D. C.

Here is my offer, as a lifelong NE corridor coastal elitist:

The NE corridor is generally considered to run from Boston to DC. We will let any other part of the country have DC. Come and get it.

You, too, can enjoy the heady atmosphere created by the presence of money and power.

Take the nation's capital, please. I'll even help the folks there pack.

I agree with a lot of what bob says. Not committing myself to all of it. I think he is right about LGM. I think Andrade is worth reading.

We are all a bit tribal, and I am including myself. In the not so good old days, the mainstream press had a near monopoly on the news and centrists despised the far left and right. Now with the internet and cable we can all find our little niches and despise the people outside them.

Aside from the "practical" reasons for wearing a cowboy hat, a person is entitled to wear one if they were born West of the Mississippi river, or ride in a rodeo.

I, for one, look forward to Moore's new career as a rodeo clown; he's got lots of experience "doing stupid things in public", certainly.

a person is entitled to wear one if they were born West of the Mississippi river, or ride in a rodeo.

otherwise it's cultural appropriation.

/ducks

How do well-meaning and flexible blog commentators want to achieve this?

Attack corporate and grifting Democrats as hard as as often as racist sexist Republicans.

Attacking corporate Democrats is going to create jobs for people living in trailers in Alabama? Sorry, I'm too unimaginative to see how.

Basically, he's making the same bet as Bannon: that if he can somehow destroy the existing political parties, they will somehow be magically replaced by a political environment that fits his personal preferences.

His and Bannon's preferences may be different. Their idea of how to achieve their (micro-minority) dream is identical -- and identically untethered from reality.

Not a second, after 16 years, after Klein and Yglesias supported the illegal invasion of Iraq and then were forgiven;after HRC the same; after Obama sold out to Wall Street

I didn't think it would but hope springs eternal. However Naomi and Matt aren't returning my calls, so I guess the only solution is to have them drawn and quartered.

Doubt he means Naomi Klein. Ezra maybe.

Ahh, well, Ezra as well hasn't been returning calls. I guess it's my fault.

Aside from the "practical" reasons for wearing a cowboy hat, a person is entitled to wear one if they were born West of the Mississippi river, or ride in a rodeo.

Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana are all in the top half of beef producing states in the country. Much of those states are at least as well suited to going after cows and calves on horseback than any other method. My limited experience in the South suggests to me that a cowboy (or equivalent) hat would be highly desirable for almost anything done on horseback there.

i learn something new every day here at obwi.

thanks michael!

Michael,

I suppose the number of "beef producing" states is less than 50, so the 5 states you mention belong to the group of less than 25 in the "top half". Fine. How do they raise beef in those 5 states? Ride the range and round'em up? Or grow them in CFO lots?

BTW, I bet MA, NY, NJ, PA, and CA are at least as far up in the list of "degree producing" states as the states you mention are in beef production. A mortarboard cap serves many of the practical functions you attribute to cowboy hats. But we don't wear them around town.

--TP

Florida is 13th, ahead of all the other states you list.

cowboy hats are not required for beef production. cows do not care about haberdashery. people have herded cattle for thousands of years without cowboy hats.

it's an affectation, a costume.

Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana are all in the top half of beef producing states in the country. Much of those states are at least as well suited to going after cows and calves on horseback than any other method.

Of course, that would mean a lot of folks in Alabama who would notice just how massively inept Moore was on a horse. Which makes doing so especially dumb.

cows do not care about haberdashery.

Who said they did? People who spend time riding horses cross country finding the damned cows and their calves and chasing them in care about it quite a bit, though. For the practical reasons listed above. Look at 19th-century photographs of horse-based cow operations from around the world -- North America, South America, Australia -- and you see some variation of the stiff wide-brimmed hat.

Yet another tread devolves into the same old cowboy-hat argument.

"Yet another tread devolves into the same old cowboy-hat argument"

hsh wins the thread.

I blame me

stiff wide-brimmed hat.

a "cowboy hat" is a specific style. it's the Stetson style, specifically: curved sides, pinched crown. you won't see a poseur like Roy Moore wearing a sombrero, after all.

Actually a cowboy hat covers a whole range of hats that includes Stetsons, which are formable anyway. Like boots, cowboys have different hats for different functions, working hats, go to meeting hats, funeral hats. Even the curved brim crowned hat has practical uses but it is far from being THE cowboy hat.

it's a whole range, sure. but it's also a pretty narrow range. everybody knows what a "cowboy hat" looks like.

Interesting, have been googling different cowboy hats.

Paniola hat (Hawaiian cowboy hat)
gaucho hat (Argentine)
australian cowboy hat

turns up some interesting variations.

I actually get the cultural resonance aspect of cowboy hats, however construed, and also their practical utility.

I just couldn't figure out why a guy running for US Senator from Alabama would go that way. They always seemed like more of a western / southwestern thing.

Michael Caine's information about ranching in AL makes sense. I just wasn't aware ranching was a thing in AL.

Live and learn!

hsh wins the thread

*****

Like boots, cowboys have different hats for different functions, working hats, go to meeting hats, funeral hats.

The earth must be flipping upside down; I'm agreeing with Marty twice before breakfast.

Yes, people wear different hats (and other clothing) for different functions. Even I put on my best jeans sometimes.

The thing about Moore is, there was no meaningful reason to go to the polls riding a horse (badly) and wearing a cowboy hat, or to pull out a little pistol while giving a campaign speech -- and wearing a cowboy hat. The only "reason" is that among all his other unadmirable qualities, Moore is a poser. What he thought he was suggesting with those antics, I hope I never know.

As for the usefulness of cowboy hats, sure, but Marty's point stands. Moore was *not* riding the range looking for dogies, he was going to vote, and giving speeches.

Playing devil's advocate a bit, though: The hat thing wouldn't seem so ludicrous to me if it weren't for the pistol and the horse -- *if* Moore has always worn cowboy hats and for whatever unknown reason that's his schtick. I like hats. I've always worn hats almost all the time I'm outside, even as a teenager (very unfashionable, I can tell you). For a long time I had a little brimmed hat styled like (so they say) a Greek fisherman's hat. I wore it everywhere. I was/am not a Greek fisherman. Later, for years, I wore a felt hat I got in Shannon duty-free shop. That was an *Irish* fisherman's hat. Come to think of it, maybe I missed my vocation, or avocation.

The hat isn't important. The posing isn't even all that important. The lying, the abuse of children, the flouting of the Constitution, the wish to roll back the clock on women's and minority rights, the nostalgia for slavery, the fact that 600,000 people still voted for this asshole on Tuesday, and however many millions for the bigger asshole in the WH, that's the problem.

Moore looked ridiculous, hat too small gun was a toy, vest was stupid. All hat and no cattle is the nicest thing you could say about him.

I like hats. I've always worn hats almost all the time I'm outside, even as a teenager (very unfashionable, I can tell you).

ha! I had that urge as a teenager. Had a hat rack. Still love them, but for me, the primary reason was to have something to hang an identity on. So it would be hypocritical for me to bust Moore for being a poser. it might be better if we had more posers, as long as they were posing as sympathetic human beings. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case.

I actually felt the slightest twinge of sympathy for Moore when I read about his sojourn to Australia
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/03/why-did-roy-moore-escape-to-australia-clues-remain-in-the-outback-wilderness

Sounds like someone wrestling with his conscience at some point.

Moore was an obvious grifter and part of me is sorry Republicans won't be burdened with that weird creepy dude.
This election was a no-brainer and Alabama is just a smidgen over 50% sane. It took 30% of the whites and 96% of the blacks to achieve that.

turns up some interesting variations.

hats are just one of those things (like women's shoes and sonnets) where very slight differences somehow creates an entirely new style.

take a typical cowboy hat and make the brim narrower and you have a fedora, or maybe a derby or a Homsburg depending on how and where the crown is pinched. flatter the top and it's a gambler. narrow the brim a bit more and it might be a bowler or a trilby. flatten the top and it's a porkpie. take a gambler shape and make it out of stiff straw and it's a boater. and a Panama hat is distinguished by being made of out straw?

and they're all supposed to say different things about the wearer!

Moore may be following an Alabama tradition exemplified by George Wallace, when after losing as a relatively liberal candidate, said 'I'll not be out-niggered again'

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/10/on-race-hustling/263210/

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