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January 07, 2014

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There is not, to my mind, any excuse for an organization which has the power to shut down public services as part of its "negotiating" efforts.

so, the House Of Representatives ?

Russell: Yes...the Loomis series has been a great read.

thompson: Please re-read your actual comment mine refers to. You present no such qualifiers there. Thanks.

cleek: great point. Perhaps we need to find a 'practical' way to shut down the Republican Party...just as long as it doesn't violate their freedom of association. The proprietaries must be observed.

"Congress, for example, can't vote to take all of my money and give it to Bob. Even if everybody in the nation hates me and really likes Bob. Or vice versa."

Sure they can. What's to stop them? Only respect for the norms and rules of society. Which is to say, the rule of law. Which is completely independent of the question of state power.

bobbyp:

Please re-read my comment, and the comment by wj I was referring to.

Context, its important.

Nailed it, cleek! There is no excuse for the current House of Representatives.

Context, its important.
1. You do not like unions much, and you really don't like public employee unions because of some assumed ability to strike and disrupt public services, as opposed to private sector unions who may also strike vital industries (HS Truman and steel mills which see).
2. If there were a 'practical way' to deny public employees this bargaining power without taking away their right of free association, you'd be in favor of it.

Now freedom of association is the very essence of organized labor. This attribute has been the heart of all your various comments on this topic. Thus the snide remark. You truly are on the horns of a dilemma. That you would appear to be willing sacrifice this central tenet for some "practical" way to squash public sector strikes strikes me as a willingness to sacrifice high fallutin' principles on the altar of expediency.

But let us look, for once, at reality. There are many practical ways to surmount this issue. Let us start with one salient fact: Only about 1/3 of public employees are organized. So there is that.

As to means and methods, we could....
1. Pay the employees what they asked for. We pretty much do this already with bankers and CEO's. Why not others? Why do you support a lop-sided workplace arrangement in the public sphere with management having all the cards?
2. Invoke the dispute resolution machinery in the contract. The right to strike is just about universally not allowed in the public sector. Instead, contracts generally include provisions for mediation or arbitration.
3. Public sector strikes tend to be relatively rare and of quite short duration.-i.e., the overwhelming number of public sector employee unions obey the law...a much higher percentage I'd wager than bankers or CEO's do.

Because of their contentious nature of the issues and the fall out that could arise from a public sector strike for BOTH sides, all incentives are already in place for the parties to bargain to finality.

And this is pretty much what we observe.

Sure they can. What's to stop them? Only respect for the norms and rules of society. Which is to say, the rule of law.

Actually, no. What's to stop them is the Constitutional prohibition on bills of attainder. So while it is a rule-of-law issue, it's one involving balance of power between parts of government rather than simple decency and respect for tradition on the part of Congress. Thankfully.

bobbyp:

"1. You do not like unions much, and you really don't like public employee unions because of some assumed ability to strike and disrupt public services, as opposed to private sector unions who may also strike vital industries (HS Truman and steel mills which see)."

I never said private sector unions couldn't disrupt vital industries. Indeed, they can. In large industries the unions can wield power far outside their negotiation with their employer. This is one of the problems with unions (although not one that comes up very much...so I can't say I think its a big problem).

However, like I said, I'm not for stripping them of their rights, and there is no other practical way of limiting the disruption a powerful union (public or private) could cause.

So its just one of those things we live with.

"2. If there were a 'practical way' to deny public employees this bargaining power without taking away their right of free association, you'd be in favor of it."

If there was a practical way to limit the disruption of a large strike in an important sector, without limiting the freedom of people to unionize, I'd be all for it. I really can't think of one.

I'm thinking you're trying to have an argument with someone else. I am all for the rights of unions.

I also think union leadership doesn't always work for the good of the worker and can have excessive lobbying influence politically (not limited to unions).

This is unfortunate, but in my mind, the only practical way to prevent this would be to inhibit the freedom of association of union members.

Which, I've stated in various forms, is not acceptable.

Living in a free society means that you don't get to dictate how other people use their freedoms. There is a distinction between disagreeing with a specific exercise of a right and the right as a whole.

"I wouldn't join a boycott of a store if they didn't share my religion. But I wouldn't vote for the government to have the power to break a boycott if it was for the wrong reasons. Even if I hold nothing but contempt for those reasons."

But are you ok with government-sponsored boycotts, as in the novel (in a democracy, I consider a popular assembly like this as equivalent to the state)? Anyone who patronizes an Irish store will be beat up? Presumably not. But that's how most collective activities work. You seem to model this situation as each member of the town individually weighing the pros and cons of patronizing Loftus' store, but that's not what is going on at all. What we're actually talking about is a community deciding to exile one of its members, and anyone going against that decision is implicitly faced with the possibility of exile themselves. (Moreover, as those above have noted, exile here carries with it the possibility of serious harm or death). You seem to be willing to tolerate this because it's all done at arm's length, even though Loftus would probably come out better off if somebody just punched him and ran off with the wheat while he was on the ground. I have a distaste for violence also, but I don't see other forms of societal coercion as being substantially different.

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Whatnot


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