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« Escalation in Afghanistan | Main | Relaxing Mark To Market »

April 02, 2009

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The rise of Iraqi casualties and the reduction of US casualties are related: they are related to the transition from US lead offensives to Iraqi led offensives. As the Iraqis take over, we should expect additional civilian casualties because the Iraqi military is not as well trained nor supplied as US forces, and therefore will not do the job as well.

This is related to COIN doctrine in that the indigenous force doing something poorly is better than US forces doing it well. It is the expected outcome.

So I don't think it is a metric of the overall trend anymore than quarterly reports reflect the health of the market: it is too short term to know if things are getting better or worse. The civilian casualty rate was expected to get worse even if the transition is going well.

Which is not to say that things are not getting worse, it is just that the numbers are not adequate as indicators.

Additionally, kicking the can down the road is a reasonable tactic for political discourse: we do it all the time ntaionally and internationally, and certainly did it when we set up our own country. Sometimes that is the only way to begin discussions about things you can agree on.

This isn't supposed to be a war to make Iraq safe for US soldiers.

Nope, it was a war to make GWB feel like a tough-guy and one-up his poppy. Mission accomplished.

So I don't think it is a metric of the overall trend anymore than quarterly reports reflect the health of the market

Granting this for the sake of argument, then it is eqaully pointless to argue about declines in US casualties being an indicator of success.

Certainly not as a way of waving away concerns over the Awakenings friction.

Granting this for the sake of argument, then it is eqaully pointless to argue about declines in US casualties being an indicator of success.

No, it is not an indicator of success, but it is probably an indicator that we are in fact moving toward more Iraqi led engagements, and therefore an indicator of an exit.

Right, but then, previous spikes in Iraqi casualties occurred throughout our occupation, and were not indicators of our imminent exit.

Still, you might be right that this time it's different.

"No, it is not an indicator of success, but it is probably an indicator that we are in fact moving toward more Iraqi led engagements, and therefore an indicator of an exit."

This seems to suggest that the more Iraqi civilian casualties, the happier we should be.

This seems to suggest that the more Iraqi civilian casualties, the happier we should be.

it's just the last throes of the birth pangs of Lady Liberty's breech delivery of a roll of flypaper.

This seems to suggest that the more Iraqi civilian casualties, the happier we should be.

I don't think that is correct, though it may be that having a high ratio of Iraqi to US deaths is a good indicator that we have pulled away from combat operations in favor of the Iraqi military.

After reviewing the IBC website, though, it looks like January, February, and March Iraqi civilian deaths is lower than the 3 months preceding, which were 527 in October, 472 in November, and 521 in December. Meanwhile, US death counts during those months were 14, 17, and 14, and for the first three months of this year US casuaties were 16, 17, and 9.

Granted the transition to Iraqi led patrols started gaining ground around October so that by January they would hit the ground running, but there does not seem to be enough variation to claim a trend.

So I don't think these numbers indicate a trend in any given direction, representing anything that we can discern, other than it is better than it was in 2006-2007, but worse than 2002-2003.

Again, this post was in response to Goldfarb's claim that one month's data on US fatalities represented a trend. If one month is good for the goose, three months is more than good for the gander.

But isn't Goldfarb's post a response to the New York Time's cherry picked data that he felt was too gloomy, and should simply be balanced with good data? I think that makes him the Gander. I am not sure what comes after the Gander...maybe a duck?

Plus, the rest of his post was somewhat more measured:

In fairness, Ricks is rightfully concerned about the increasingly tense relationship between the Sunni Sons of Iraq and the Shiite government, but his concern hinges on "how things could fall apart if U.S. troops are withdrawn without more sustainable political deals." With casualties where they are now, shouldn't Ricks then be urging a slower, conditions-based withdrawal? At this rate it would take fifty years for American casualties to double. Is it really worth jeopardizing everything that's been gained just to get U.S. troops out a few months earlier?

Not that I agree with the suggestion that we could stay for 50 years and only double our casualties, but Goldfarb does acknowledge that things could go bad, and Goldfarb's point seems to be similar to the advice that Ricks posted from the Carnegie Foundation:

The dichotomous debate over Iraq -- one side supports (even if tacitly) indefinite occupation on the grounds that a full-scale civil war will erupt if the United States withdraws prematurely; the other supports a phased withdrawal of American troops from Iraq on the grounds that the occupation is increasingly a strategic liability - excludes moral considerations. Members of the former camp should ask themselves: is it right for the United States to stay in Iraq if it does not accord at least as much priority to the welfare of Iraqis as it does to its own strategic interests? Members of the latter camp should ask themselves: given how greatly Iraqis have suffered as a result of the war, is it principled for the United States to abdicate its humanitarian obligations to them under the banner of "ending the occupation?" Although each camp claims the moral high ground, the reality is that they both avoid the considerations that must underlie any moral posture.

If I were an Iraqi, I might really just want the people who wrecked my country's infrastructure, turned its politics over to religious nuts, made millions of my fellow citizens flee, and let loose the chaos in which hundreds of thousands of us died to just go ahead, tell themselves the humanitarian duty is all done, and please get the f__k out.

The total tone-deafness on display in discussions like these confuses and sometimes scares me. When I was robbed, the burglars didn't stay around to debate how they could improve the quality of life. I've been the target of two unsuccessful sexual assaults, and neither guy stayed to explain how my being raped would be the stepping stone to a better life for me. (Or for him, for that matter.) Some crimes and sins use up all of a person's right to talk about "humanitarian obligations."

Lupita,

Perhaps humanitarian is incorrect. On the otherhand, even in the personal examples you provided, presumably the perpetrators could have left you in worse position: perhaps killing or maiming you, or stranding you in a place you could not get help, or leaving you to be preyed upon by other bad people.

That they chose not to is not an example of humanitarianism, but surely it is good that they did not decide to leave you in worse shape than they did.

So the question now is how can we leave Iraq in the best position we can, recognizing we can't take back the robbery and sexual assault. Whether it is labeled as "humanitarian" seems small compared to the larger issue.

"So maybe it's time that the Iraqi people were more than an afterthought when assessing the arc of events."

Well, they never were more than that since the western powers drew up Iraq's boundaries down to this very day.

Change is hard.

jrudkis, I think Andy Bacevich proposed a solution to the conundrum you cute. Any Iraqi whose life has been disrupted by the invasion, yet still feels they would be unsafe after US departure, gets to move to the U.S., unless they are a "radical or a mischief-maker" http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/27/2122

Jrudkis: I don't trust the good intentions of someone who's just harmed me and then wants to talk about doing me good unless they start by admitting the wrong and submitting to judgment for it. The US is one of those police chiefs who'll do anything for community relations except make cops pay any penalty for their wrongdoing, and wonders why others don't respect them. If this were any other nation, we'd be talking about invading them to put an end to multiple administrations of warmongering, and with some justice. We are not the solution, we're the problem, and will be that way until there's any real punishment for the perpetrators.

I think that's our humanitarian obligation, not more f'ing with Iraq.

Events are showing that Katulis was right about the risks of paying off insurgents to switch the Awakenings. But did he have a solid alternative that was realistic?

Would it have been better to *not* pay for the Awakening members to shoot at others instead of U.S. troops?

Somehow, I doubt it.

Lupita,

That makes sense when you are talking about an event in the past, but in the current case, the harm is ongoing, so I think you probably would listen to ways to ensure that those who harmed you did not leave you in a worse position than necessary.

Feel free to prosecute after the victim is helped.

Leaving the victim in the hands of the criminals trying to violate her is damn close to never the right thing to do.

There are no humane empires. It always becomes necessary to choose the maintenance of the empire or the well-being and basic rights of the occupied. The US has chosen, continues to choose, the empire. If we were to do what the people of Iraq really need, we'd have to unravel the work of empire, and as a nation we're committed to not doing that. Instead, our national debate is about how to make Iraq the best China clone it can be, with as much good for them as is compatible with their not having any real fundamental autonomy.

So we'll bumble along and more people will get f'ed. Because that's what life is like under imperialists trying to dodge the realities of empire.

jrudkis seems convinced of the "benevolent empire" theory in which we have the ability to make right all the things we've catastrophically fucked up in countries whose dynamics we understand dimly, if at all. I am not. I'm also amused by the arguments many make for continuing involvement that we need to remain to paper over the divisions of Iraqi society. This, of course, is the argument the British used cynically for decades to remain in India and anywhere else they wanted to stay. Like Lupita, I cannot (and don't think any of us should) get over the fact that we engaged in an unprovoked war of aggression against another country, causing death and injury to hundreds of thousands of people. Why do we have the right after committing that kind of stupid violation to remain there, spitting tidily vapid crap about "metrics of progress?" We don't belong there - our presence is the original crime against the people of Iraq, and by staying we perpetutate it.

But isn't Goldfarb's post a response to the New York Time's cherry picked data that he felt was too gloomy

No. It was in response to a story about a very serious rift forming between the Awakenings and the Iraqi government. He wasn't citing data to counter data. He was citing data to counter a story that told of an extremely dangerous development - to say, no worries, things are really going great, just look here at US fatalities.

You're right that he does mention the rift, but only in passing as a throwaway line on the way to his other point.

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