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« Closing Guantanamo: Part 2 | Main | Joe the Plumber in Israel »

January 13, 2009

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Eric:

Thank you, in all sincerity, for this post - reminding us all of the incalculable damage and suffering left in the wake of our intervention. Obama may succeed in withdrawing a large percentage of our forces, but he cannot possibly undo these tectonic shifts, whose reverberations will be felt for decades to come. It is sobering, and depressing, to think of the full costs of our Iraqi blunders.

That's what the "victory" is, just as predicted: a Shia-dominated government.

The sectarian cleansing of Baghdad is looking permanent. The vast majority of the prisoners in U.S. military prison camps ("Reconciliation Centers") are Sunnis. The same is true of prisoners held in Iraqi jails and prisons. The Awakening/Sons of Iraq/whatever groups are being stiffed.

Interesting times ahead; what will be the level of U.S. support for Maliki's or some similar government? That residual force: will it be soldiers and marines, or private military? What kind of meddling will we undertake in the provincial elections, if any?

Intervention? Is that the word you intended to use?

Eric:

I used 'intervention' because it encompasses the full range of activities in which we've engaged. We aided and helped arm Saddam, and then opposed him. We drove Iraqi forces out of Kuwait and bombed Iraq. We subjected the country to a prolonged economic blockade. We encouraged an internal revolt, and erected a virtual state-within-a-state in the north. And, yes, we invaded and occupied the country. Each of those actions constituted an intervention, and most exacerbated the problems presently besetting the country.

Honestly, I was trying to respond to your post in the spirit in which it seemed to be offered - to acknowledge the incalculable suffering of innocent civilians swept up in these events, too often ignored. If you want to discuss the proper characterization of our actions in the Middle East, we can do that; but on this thread, I have to say, I'd prefer to focus for a moment on the millions who will never be able to go home again.

Observer: You know, I didn't mean that to sound as controversial as it did. I apologize for that errant tone.

Also, I appreciate your comments on this site. They have been thought provoking, challenging and civil. A rare triple play.

I just bristle a little at the characterization of the 2003 invasion as an intervention - which connotes a humanitarian relief effort. Which it was most certainly not.

But that was not what you meant, and I was overly brusque.

And by "controversial" I actually meant "confrontational"...

"But with the latest in a series of triumphalist episodes now percolating up from war supporters, someone should let those women - and young girls - know that, contrary to what the traitorous liberals and their media stooges claim, we've won!"

Just so.

Also, regarding purple hearts.

Just so.


Also, regarding purple hearts.

Sheesh, what one sees after posting is completely unreliable now.

"the person described in this piece appearing on Steve Clemons' site"

For what it's worth, pieces reading exactly like this were being published two years ago and more.

Indeed Gary. And the prostitution pieces aren't new either. But still relevant. Ahmed only departed for Syria this November after all.

@Eric:

Your exchange with Observer reminded me of a political divide that was very evident in discussions before the Iraq invasion, but has been blurred in recent years.

'U.S. intervention' is not a good thing to me, nor even a neutral thing. The interventionist character of our foreign policy is exactly what I'm opposed to -- along with the assumption that it's the U.S. government's right to intervene anywhere in the world (by any means -- military, economic, non-governmental organizations, media...)

It never occurred to me that to some it might connote "humanitarian intervention," which I regard as a ludicrous bit of propaganda that served as the favored cover for U.S. wars of choice of the 1990s.

Nell,

Me and wiki down by the schoolyard:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_intervention

I just bristle a little at the characterization of the 2003 invasion as an intervention

And I bristle at Observer's characterization of civilians being "swept up in these events" as if they were victims of a natural disaster, and not of the very deliberate actions of the United States government. But maybe that's just me.

Once again -- has anyone heard from Riverbend after she arrived in Syria? I didn't really follow her blog until she left; now it seems too late.

Thanks, Eric. I appreciate that.

There's on odd dynamic to commenting on blogs. I'm drawn to read those with which I find thought-provoking, interesting, informative, or otherwise enlightening. Yet, typically, I'm moved to comment by posts which seem to me misguided, or with which I think I can productively disagree. I probably come off as an inveterate crank; that's hardly my intent. The truth is, I agree with most things that get posted to this site, but don't generally feel moved to say so. And I take the trouble to air my disagreements because I respect the authors - and most of the other commenters they've attracted - and find that the ensuing dialogue helps to clarify and crystallize my own views, and on occasion, serves to profoundly alter or change them.

So I'll continue to voice my cantankerous dissent, but hope it will be accepted in the spirit in which it's offered - as an invitation to discuss.

"The truth is, I agree with most things that get posted to this site, but don't generally feel moved to say so."

I think that's entirely common; it's not very interesting to simply repeat variants of "well-put; I agree!," no matter that it's unfair that most of us don't tend to post such comments as often as we think that.

Jeff: I have not heard from, or of her, since.

I've noticed that the most commented posts, on any blog, will be those where a front-page poster writes a piece that's (on that blog's terms) reasonably mainstream... and then a drop-in or a regular disagreeable posts a comment in absolute contradiction.

Result, on any blog: more than the usual number of comments from regulars who might never have thought to post anything if all they could say is "How true!" or "I agree!"

Observer, of course I disagree with you on most points, but the fact is, the most interesting political blogs to read are in general those which are set up to allow run-and-run discussion, providing the blog owner does something to get rid of the outright trolls (sadly, Kevin Drum took a hands-off approach in that regard, rendering the threads at Political Animal useless for discussion).

Commenters who can be relied upon to post in civil articulate disagreement with the front page posters are as valuable to a blog in building up an online community as the articulate intelligence of the front page posters is. Even if the pile-on isn't much fun... ;-) ...think of it as an Internet hampster hug?

Jes, sorry I didn't say anything when you posted it, but thanks for the recipe for Chewy Chocolate Gingerbread Cookies you dropped in the comments earlier to when I suggested a food thread.

I had to set my own limits.

I promised myself to stay away, if I called Von or Sebastian a Fascist, one more time.

(I was thinking right-wing nihilist but….)

Jes, sorry I didn't say anything when you posted it, but thanks for the recipe for Chewy Chocolate Gingerbread Cookies you dropped in the comments earlier to when I suggested a food thread.

Thanks! Hope you enjoy them. My blogoresolutions for 2009 were to keep doing Tuesday Recipe Blogging on a regular basis.

Actually, I already wrote the one for next Tuesday. It's mostly about how to make good pastry, and the title of the post is "Promises Are Piecrust".

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