Debate Open Thread

by hilzoy

I won't be liveblogging this one, but comment away!

Comments

[KCinDC]

So McCain is in charge of pre-debate health reports.

[The Modesto Kid]

My young daughter (3rd grade) is watching the debate as homework. She just said "McCain blinks more than Obama!" which I was noticing too.

[KCinDC]

Did McCain just say "50% of small business taxes are paid by small businesses"?

[Andrew]

I am unsure if it is appropriate to suggest this here, but I set up a quick, free ObiWi Chat Room, if anyone is interested.
No personal info is needed, everyone here is welcome. I am in no way connected to the site providing this service.

If this is not ok, hilzoy, my apologies, and please delete this post.

[KCinDC]

Do we have to have the same tax conversation at every debate? I mean, adding in Joe Wurtzelburger was a new touch, I guess, but we need some new material.

[david kilmer]

Of course, Joe the Plummer won't have many houses to plumb.

[The Modesto Kid]

This debate's format is way more interesting than the earlier two.

[J. Michael Neal]

Sure. Let's make public policy by not doing anything we don't like.

[KCinDC]

Back to the Ireland business tax lie, and Obama had no opportunity to rebut it.

[david kilmer]

Obama should have come back from Joe the Plumber with a specific person that he would help.

[KCinDC]

Chat room won't let me post, Andrew, so I'm staying here.

Schieffer of course is yet another Very Serious Moderator saying that we have to cut government spending in the middle of a depression.

[david kilmer]

"Profligate ways". Connect it to the current administration, for heaven's sake.

I hope Obama warms up a bit.

[KCinDC]

Use a hatchet and then get out a scalpel? I don't think that metaphor works.

[mjm]

Mr Freeze!

[KCinDC]

And the overhead projector. Sigh. Can't McCain even come up with new lies?

[david kilmer]

Ack! The projector!

[Warren Terra]

KC is exactly right about McCain's zombie Ireland lie. When McCain raised it in a previous debate, Obama skewered it, as did the various factchecking organizations. Clearly McCain didn't care. P.S. Earmarks and overhead projectors, my friends!

[david kilmer]

Let's just go to Ayers. Otherwise, this is just going to be a re-run.

[KCinDC]

And the $42,000 tax threshold lie. It's the same lies every debate!

[mjm]

Hurtin' and angry is the theme, apparently.

[KCinDC]

Joe the Plumber, of course, is actually Joe the Plumbing Company Owner.

[Jay C]

@ david kilmer

A re-run wouldn't be the worst outcome: McCain still looks like Johnny Rictus spouting boilerplate: Obama still looks "Presidential" sputinh HIS boilerplate.

I'll take it.

[KCinDC]

MJM, Josh Marshall says hurtin' and angry is a description of McCain himself.

[KCinDC]

So "lie" counts as a smear when your opponent is lying? Schieffer knows what he can do with his false balance.

[david kilmer]

Here we go...

[Jay C]

OOh: Schieffer brings up the campaign!

Criminy - "town halls" again?

up pops John Lewis. Whoop.

[The Modesto Kid]

What did John Lewis say?

[KCinDC]

McCain should consider whether when John Lewis, whom he supposedly admires, says he's a disgrace it means there's something wrong with McCain himself, not with Lewis.

[Pooh]

Obama made me do it!

[KCinDC]

Is anyone in America actually buying this ridiculous excuse that Obama forced McCain to go all smears all the time by not agreeing to endless town halls?

[KCinDC]

McCain is "proud" of the people screaming "Kill him!" and "Terrorist!"

[david kilmer]

I love how McCain sniffs when he's mad.

[Pooh]

This is completely terrible.

[KCinDC]

And here we go. Ayers and ACORN. Complete insanity on ACORN.

[Pooh]

GOOD answer on who Obama "associates" with.

[The Modesto Kid]

Speaking of terrorists, Obama just said he associates with Jim Jones -- that can't help.

[david kilmer]

It's going to be *very* had not to watch the pundits after the debate tonight.

[KCinDC]

Hmm, maybe Schieffer isn't completely on the tire swing after all. He asks why each running mate would be a good president. No doubt McCain will have some BS, but no one will actually believe it.

[david kilmer]

"When she saw corruption, she resigned"

Classic.

[patriotic one]

Do my eyes deceive me or did McCain forget his flag pin? Does he not care for this country?

[The Modesto Kid]

Finally Obama points out in a debate what a consequence of Mccain's across-the-board freeze would be.

[Bernard Yomtov]

Nice dig on autism.

[Anarch]

Why the f*** is McCain always being given the last word?

[david kilmer]

"Do my eyes deceive me or did McCain forget his flag pin?"

Again.

[Andrew]

KCinDC, it didn't work for you. A few other folks are getting along ok.

[david kilmer]

"Why the f*** is McCain always being given the last word?"

I was thinking exactly the same thing.

[mjm]

4 years or 10? Realism or fantasy?

[KCinDC]

I hate the way McCain uses the verb "offshore-drill" instead of "drill offshore".

[Anarch]

Ok, has Obama been given the last word on anything? Literally, anything?

[Timjbd]

What was McCains point about Colombia? That was some serious flailing.

[The Modesto Kid]

First mention of Bill Ayers was from Obama, first mention of Hoover was from McCain.

[mjm]

Obama=Hoover? Wha...?

[KCinDC]

Didn't Hoover freeze or cut government spending in the depression, the way McCain wants to?

[KCinDC]

Kid, did Obama actually mention Ayers or just allude to the smears? I thought McCain had the first mention of the name.

[Warren Terra]

I can't be certain about it until there's a transcript, but it seems like, with Schieffer's help by shifting to new topics, McCain is getting the last word on almost every exchange (like most of his words, usually an attack, and one whose veracity I'd challenge), even though they're alternating for who gets the first word on each exchange.

[Timjbd]

McCain wants to put health care records on-line- He could start with his OWN and Palins records.

[The Modesto Kid]

It's true, Obama did not mention the name. I was just trying to extend the false equivalency between the campaigns I guess. (Our household just stopped watching the debate in favor of Project Runway so all my debate is going to be second-hand now.)

[hilzoy]

If I were Joe the Plumber, I would be very annoyed about being told what I think, what I worry about, etc.

[Warren Terra]

McCain must be awfully certain that this Joe guy (1) LOVES McCain; (2) is telegenic; and (3) will stand up to scrutiny.

[Anarch]

And (4) exists.

[KCinDC]

If I were Joe the Plumber, I'd be annoyed at how many people were calling me right now for interviews.

[The Modesto Kid]

ThinkProgress has video of Joe.

[hilzoy]

Here comes infanticide...

[Gary Farber]

"A few other folks are getting along ok."

So can I read it now? Where's the record? Can we read it tomorrow?

[alchemist]

Anybody else notice that McCain is blinking like twice a second? It's kinda freaking me out.

[KCinDC]

Will McCain's sniffing be covered the way Gore's sighing was? I think I know the answer to that.

[Pooh]

Bob Schieffer has been by far the best of the 4 moderators.

[KCinDC]

Well, except for the always-giving-McCain-the-last-word thing, Pooh.

[Catsy]

As I said on the GOS, I'm surprised McCain hasn't brought up Bob the Builder yet. Then again, I think .

(On the gripping hand, Palin could probably learn a thing or two from watching Bob the Builder.)

[Catsy]

Href delenda est!

[Jay C]

@Pooh
Low bar to vault, man

[Catsy]

That link should read, "Then again, I think Bob is voting for Obama".

Apologies for the multi-post, wanted to fix that quickly.

[Warren Terra]

Pooh, I like his forcing the topics, but see my above comment on his giving McCain the last word time and time again (pending the transcript).

[KCinDC]

Gary, if you can't see the chat by following Andrew's link, someone (like me) can send the transcript to you if you're interested.

[Warren Terra]

"You and I and Cindy and ... your wife"? WTF?

[Pooh]

Well, except for the always-giving-McCain-the-last-word thing, Pooh.

I'm including that in my calculations. If McCain had made any use of his last mover advantage, I might feel differently, but all he's done is throw in non-sequitorish and rather opaque attacks.

[mjm]

Shorter McCain right now: We're going to spend, but we're going to freeze.

[Pooh]

Obama gets LAST last word!

[hilzoy]

Luckily, the coin decided the compensate for Schieffer.

[Anarch]

My gf says that CNN's snap polls are heavily favoring McCain? And that Democratic responses are dropping whenever Obama speaks?

[KCinDC]

Anarch, I only saw the CNN TV dial graphs, and they were men and women (undecided), not Democrats and Republicans.

[mjm]

I wonder if Michelle introduced herself.

[Pooh]

Huge gender split on CNN, women heavily favored Obama.

[dnfree]

How many times did McCain misspeak or forget tonight? I thought it was huge. Couldn't remember Michelle's name, said Palin knows about autism, said Obama voted against Justice Breyer???? I think there were more but that is what I can remember.

And then being dismissive not just of women's health issues with abortion, but ALSO of the woman who found out too late she was underpaid. I think he said something like "you could go back 20 or 30 years, it would be a trial lawyer's dream". Not nearly as much sympathy for the underpaid woman as for good old Joe the plumber.

[The Modesto Kid]

Is there a tape of the women's health exchange anywhere? I missed that but would like to see it. There's a cryptic note at TPM that says "we're pulling the video" -- does that mean they had it up but are taking it down? Why?

[MaryL]

Holy moley. Report from 538:

CBS poll of undecideds:

Who won the debate?

Obama 53
McCain 22

[Tony P.]

What's McCain's fetish with Colombia? Does his campaign treasurer lobby for it, or something?

Since when did little Trig Palin become autistic? Trisomy-21 (aka Down's) is a whole different thing from autism.

If Joe the Plumber has a Sched_C profit of $250,001 from that small business of his, then he goddam well should pay 39 cents out of that last dollar -- just exactly like a guy who draws a $250,001 salary. (Yes, I know: the top tax bracket doesn't actually kick in until $315K or something. But you get my point.) As a sole prop, I would be ecstatic to make that 250,001st dollar, no matter what the tax rate on it is. Joe would be, too. Whoever McCain is trying to fool with this particular line of BS about personal income tax rates stifling small business, I bet Joe the Plumber is too smart to fall for it.

If "qualifications" is all McCain requires of SCOTUS appointees, does that mean he'd consider nominating Lawrence Tribe?

--TP

[Warren Terra]

Modesto, I'm sure TPM is pulling the video from their DVR or equivalent for posting to YouTube.

[The Modesto Kid]

Oh I see -- I didn't understand "pulling".

[The Modesto Kid]

Yep, there it is.

[Tsam]

I heard the debate on radio, while working late. Seeing the difference between audio and A-V has been fascinating for the first three debates, I will do for the last one later tonight.

MSNBC has an online poll showing that Obama is seen the winner 7-to-1. The poll at FoxNews.com is showing Obama a 2-to-1 winner.

[now_what]

Weird, once again, that the undecideds go so heavily for Obama as the winner of the debate when even many of the liberal pundits see it as a tie, noting as a caveat that Obama only really needed a tie.

53-22 isn't a tie, its a landslide.

What do the undecideds see that the partisans don't?

[Jay C]

McCain is "proud" of the people screaming "Kill him!" and "Terrorist!"

Posted by: KCinDC | October 15, 2008 at 09:34 PM

Yes: another own-goal for Team McCain: sounds nice in a debate context, but probably won't play so well in the next week or so when juxtaposed (by some "civic-minded" 527, no doubt) with a photo of Bubba Joe Klanboy at a Sarah Palin rally with his beer gut spilling out from a Confederate-flag t-shirt and holding a sign saying "Lynch Obama" (or, more likely, "Linch"). Proud - you betcha!

[Don the libertarian Democrat]

Do Joe Six-pack and Joe the Plumber know each other? And are they married to hockey moms?

[Michael Cain]

What do the undecideds see that the partisans don't?

The liberal pundits are policy wonks, and the debate format gives little opportunity for either candidate to make an organized presentation of their policy proposals. The undecideds, OTOH, are probably seeing one candidate who is calm, pleasant, and consistent about whose side he's on, versus the other candidate who seems more and more like your erratic great uncle John, who gets seriously on your nerves when you have to listen to him for 90 minutes.

I have been saying for some time that if the Republicans could make the election be about personalities, McCain wins narrowly. I think the debates have put Obama ahead on the personality side as well, because McCain has come off far worse when it's an extended exposure than he does in his 60-second carefully assembled ads.

[KCinDC]

It's not that surprising that McCain thinks of someone making $250,000 and someone making $40,000 as being in the same situation. To someone like McCain, who pays about as much for servants as the two of them make combined, and whose wife wears earrings that cost as much as their combined yearly salaries, the difference between them is indeed insignificant.

[Gary Farber]

"What do the undecideds see that the partisans don't?"

That Obama isn't a Muslim communist terrist.

Being undecided, they were unsure up to now.

[Gary Farber]

Okay, the debate is just beginning. For me. Having missed the live version: the C-Span rerun has just started.

[Gary Farber]

Posted on wrong thread: Is it just me, or does McCain seem kind of pop-eyed?

[ThatLeftTurnInABQ]

53-22 isn't a tie, its a landslide.

What do the undecideds see that the partisans don't?

I'd like to know that too.

Is it just that the partisans want to see metaphorical blood in the water, whereas the undecideds are truly evaluating who they want to be President, and Obama is just better - something we can't really see any more with neutral eyes, as if we are hankering for a banana split with nuts and whipped cream and a cherry on top (and anything less is a disappointment because we've become so jaded) whereas the undecideds are at the "mmmm - ice cream! good!" stage that we passed a long time ago.

Is it that simple?

Or is it that the undecideds actually decided in favor of Obama sometime back, and have just been looking for a convenient excuse to admit to themselves that they've made up their minds? Were they not really all that undecided to begin with?