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March 19, 2008

Comments

They brought what they had to bring to the table. In the end, it wasn't much.

They've had their day, and now it is coming to an end.

Thanks -

Personally, I always thought "Derbyshire" was a pretty funny sounding name.

Playfair Morule is kind of funny. Admit it.

Never been a fan of Derbyshire to say the least. William F. Buckley must be turning over in his grave seeing a writer for his magazine essentially equate modern conservatism to kindergarten name-calling.

What about
Sam Brownback
Tom "The Hammer" Delay
Congressman Henry Hyde (as in Henry Jekyll and Edward Hyde)
Mike Huckabee
etc.?

I think a producer would require those name changed, if found in a non-satirical movie script.
I am still waiting for someone named Cor(in) R. Upt(on) to be elected ;-)

Given that Buckley may, in the end, be most famous for calling Gore Vidal a "goddamned queer" on national television and threatening to punch him, I kinda doubt it.

Two words "Newt Gingrich"...
(and for NZ we actually had a candidate called Wyatt Creech who must have had a hell childhood)

I knew I forgot someone (who would not love to forget the Newt?)

"Sexwale" is kind of funny if you pronounce it the way an English-speaker would expect it to be pronounced. (It was considered quite a hoot when Sexwale became prominent in South African politics in the 1990s -- I don't know where Derbyshire has been hiding since then if he thinks Sexwale is a newbie.) Oh, in South Africa it's pronounced sort of like seggghhhwahllay.

Why he thinks Godongwana is a funny name I can't figure, unless he thinks that darkie names are funny by definition.

But I'm afraid I start becoming a bit nervous when loony-right-wing white bastards in the Invincible Empire start knowing the names of our leaders. Does that mean you're going to start having them killed?

(Oh, if you must, please start with Jacob Zuma. The country can certainly spare him.)

what i love about the negative reactions to Obama's speech is that so many of them are examples of the kinds of things Obama was talking about!

people saying "oh, well Obama shouldn't be telling us white people what to do unless he can make the black people fix their problems first!" or "i can't believe he called white people racist! did he never listen to that hate-monger preacher of his?", etc.. it's like they want to be offended by something he said, so they quote-mine to find a sentence and a half that will do the job, if they ignore the message behind the entire speech - which they do.

The Corner's Shameful Day

I thought that was everyday.

Before I read the post or the thread: Yr first, Sullivan’s paragraph, is to my taste distinctively stunning. Right down the middle with a finely honed razor.

Don't forget Sen. Crapo, not to mention former Congressthing Chocula. Why do Republicans have such funny names?

Given that Buckley may, in the end, be most famous for calling Gore Vidal a "goddamned queer" on national television and threatening to punch him, I kinda doubt it.

Without this excusing him - it doesn't - homophobia was pretty prevalent for anyone of Buckley's generation. I suspect you'd find the majority of greatest generation public figures - liberals included - uttered this particular epithet at one time or another. Certainly there have been a lot of liberal racists/homophobes. See, e.g., Robert Byrd, he of KKK Grand Dragonhood. Or too many gay-bashing black preachers to name.

For the most part, Buckley maintained a pretty high level of civility in his writings and public appearances. Whatever his various moral and intellectual blind spots aside - I think there were quite a few, for the record - he never PUBLISHED anything as juvenile, vacuous, or patently offensive as this Derbyshire post.

Playfair Morule is kind of funny. Admit it.

Yeah, it is. And John Derbyshire is an ass.

Also -- may he rest in peace and all that, but I just don't remember Buckley as being all that nice of a guy. Just saying.

Thanks -

In Texas we have a Republican running for Congress (I believe) named John R. Manlove. That sure beats Sexwale.

John Derbyshire may be the most despicable right-wing commentator of all, which is quite an achievement.

In the 1990's he waged a years long campaign in his New York Post column on behalf of Arkansas rapist and murderer Wayne Dumond. Dumond, you see, was an innocent victim of the Clinton Machine. He had been convicted of raping a high school aged distant cousin of Bill Clinton and was serving a long prison sentence. According to Derbyshire, whose motives were purely political, Dumond was innocent and only because of Bill Clinton was the poor man being held in prison.

Finally, Derbyshire and other far right conspiracy nuts were able to get Governor Huckabee to release Dumond. Dumond was paroled to Missouri where he raped and murdered two more women, one of whom was pregnant at the time she was raped and murdered by Derbyshire's friend.

Derbyshire has never paid any price for his unforgivable actions. As far as I know he has never even apologized. In John Derbyshire's case, his politics and his words had real and tragic consequences for two innocent Missouri women and their families.

...and after; ditto to cleek, though there’s been an abundance of that mindset from the trolls and their allies here too.
It suggests just how durable and intractable the challenges are. I can only imagine Obama, for all his committed optimism, has a pretty good handle on the difficulty of the tasks he’s taking on, which serves to illuminate his courage. All the more so that he doesn’t put it on a banner and wave it around.
Again, the main thing that worries me is the degree to which he embodies ideals of grace. Too perfect, yet without any sign (admitting much disagreement here) of pretense or subterfuge.

In Texas we have a Republican running for Congress (I believe) named John R. Manlove. That sure beats Sexwale.

You certainly think it'd hurt him in Hagee country. Unless he's running in Austin, maybe. When LaSalle University re-instituted it's football program a few years back, it hired as the head coach a guy named Bill Manlove as the coach. Which has got to be the greatest name for a football coach, like, ever.

In the 1990's he waged a years long campaign in his New York Post column on behalf of Arkansas rapist and murderer Wayne Dumond. Dumond, you see, was an innocent victim of the Clinton Machine.

I thought that was Steve Whatsisface? I get those bat*** crazy NY Post commentators mixed up sometimes, though.

ugh. gotta edit my posts better.

OT - Happy Fifth Birthday Iraq War! When I was your age, I was walking by myself to kindergarten and refusing to learn the proper way to tie my shoes. But look at you! You're already killing U.S. soldiers on a regular basis, causing the deaths of untold Iraqis, pissing billions (or trillions!) of dollars down the drain, and creating new enemies of the United States on a daily basis! If you're doing all that at age 5, I can't wait to see what you're doing at 10 years old!

Don't eat too much cake.

Ah come on guys. Barrel. Fish. Shotgun. That’s not to excuse any of it – I did a roundup myself last night. But if you want to raise your “level of difficulty” score you have to go after something a little more challenging. ;)

Hm, we could look for politicians that acted in pornographic movies* ;-)

*seems to be more of a European thing though

Debtors prison used to be called the 'klink;' the noise the chains on the prisoners made. Their debts doubled the day they went to prison. After a few years, they could pay to leave after paying to stay.

Debtors prison used to be called the 'klink;' the noise the chains on the prisoners made. Their debts doubled the day they went to prison. After a few years, they could pay to leave after paying to stay.

Also -- may he rest in peace and all that, but I just don't remember Buckley as being all that nice of a guy. Just saying.

You'd know better than I, since he was (mostly) before my time. I just know him from one book, several articles, and videos of a handful of his public appearances (in one of which he was quite polite to Noam Chomsky, of all people). Other than the Vidal quote, I've never heard of an instance of him being rude or hostile to people. I admit that knowledge is limited, though.

In any case, I don't think NRO is living up to the title of "a magazine for conservative intellectuals" these days. I thought it'd be tough to sink below 24/7 immigrant bashing, torture fetishism, and Bush worship, but they've done it.

I thought that was Steve Whatsisface?

I think you are right. I was thinking Derbyshire but it may have been the other guy at the New York Post.

If so, and I gave the impression that Mr. Derbyshire had done something wrong, I apologize.

That was my impression of a politician's apology. Actually, I did kind of defame the guy and I'm sorry.

To read the Corner today was to be reminded that some are immune to the grace and hope and civility that Reagan summoned at his best; the anger and bitterness is so palpably fueled by fear and racism it really does mark a moment of revelation to me.

Reagan summoned grace and hope and civility? On the subject of racism?

On the whole, I'd rather deal with people like the posters on The Corner than with lying sacks like Andrew Sullivan--at least with the Cornerites, you know they're up front about their racism and idiocy.

Xeynon, remind me to find the Buckley piece where he makes fun of the speech of a black girl behind the counter at a KFC. He was a nasty piece of work, however much politeness and erudition he dressed it up in.

Buckley maintained a pretty high level of civility in his writings and public appearances. Whatever his various moral and intellectual blind spots aside - I think there were quite a few, for the record - he never PUBLISHED anything as juvenile, vacuous, or patently offensive as this Derbyshire post.

You are mistaken. Buckley was a vigorous advocate of segregation, and some of his pieces during the Civil Rights era far surpassed this Derbyshire post. One often-quoted example is this: this:

The central question that emerges--and it is not a parliamentary question or a question that is answered by meerely consulting a catalog of the rights of American citizens, born Equal--is whether the White community in the South is entitled to take such measures as are necessary to prevail, politically and culturally, in areas in which it does not predominate numerically? The sobering answer is Yes--the White community is so entitled because, for the time being, it is the advanced ace.

There is more, but this was easy to find. To be fair, Buckley later changed his views on civil rights, but that does not mean he didn't write these things.

None of this is as funny as Cardinal Sin.

The Corner's Shameful Day

Or, as the rest of us call it, "Tuesday."

Phil - haven't seen the piece, but reckon I'd find it offensive. I'd point out, though, that making fun of peoples' accents, especially those which mark them in stereotype as uneducated, is pretty common. There are a lot of northeastern liberals I know (those are the circles I run in) who make fun of the way people from Appalachia speak. There are also more than a few working class whites who'd laugh not only at mockery of the black dialect but also that spoken by Hispanic immigrants, Chinese people, etc. And lest you think this sort of thing doesn't come out of the Democratic elite sometimes as well, I need only remind you of Joe Biden's unfortunate Dunkin' Donuts comment, or Andrew Cuomo describing Obama's rhetorical style as minstrel-show shuckin' n' jivin'.

Bernard - is that a retrograde and, by modern standards, racist remark? Most definitely. But it's racism of the paternalistic, Rudyard-Kipling-White-Man's-Burden sort, which, while I find it repulsive, was, as I mentioned, common among people of people of the time. To wit:

"These Negroes, they're getting pretty uppity these days and that's a problem for us since they've got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we've got to do something about this, we've got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference. For if we don't move at all, then their allies will line up against us and there'll be no way of stopping them, we'll lose the filibuster and there'll be no way of putting a brake on all sorts of wild legislation. It'll be Reconstruction all over again."

- LBJ, 1957

More recently:

"Everybody likes to go to Geneva. I used to do it for the Law of the Sea conferences and you'd find these potentates from down in Africa, you know, rather than eating each other, they'd just come up and get a good square meal in Geneva."

-Ernest Hollings, 1993

If anything, I'd say this is even more offensive than what Derbyshire said.

Well, I disagreed with Buckley on just about everything, but everyone is a sum of his or her parts, and here's some of the parts:

Gore Vidal: On the show in question, Gore Vidal started the name-calling by referring to Buckley as a crypto-fascist. Buckley went to the "queer" remark immediately and then threatened to "sock" Vidal if he used the "f" word again.

One can imagine some silly slapping between those two and some clipboard-over-cravat mayhem.

They sued and went to court. Buckley won the case, Vidal not being able to prove "crypto-fascism." Vidal could not prove the "queer" accusation false.

Nasty business on both ends from two sharp-tongued aristocrats, but if you've ever seen Vidal in action, he can take effete smugness to such a degree that even I could be tempted to sucker-punch him mid-sentence.

Buckley, no less effete and smug, not to mention gifted with a "reptilian languor" as someone once put it, could claim many "liberals" as fast friends, including Norman Mailer.

Somehow, I don't think Buckley ever would have threatened to punch Mailer, for good reason if you know something of Mailer's street and pub cred in the field of pugilism.

Other parts:

Buckley smoked pot on his sailboat outside U.S. waters and hated our marijuana laws. At one time in my life, learning about this had the same effect on me as my mother would have had she mentioned offhand at the dinner table with a wink that we were going to have some Maui Wowie for dessert, if you know what I mean.

Buckley also singlehandedly threw Ayn Rand and the "stillborn" Objectivists out of the conservative movement. Rand despised Buckley to the end of her life, and famously would stalk dramatically (do tell!) from parties if he showed up, probably telling the host as an excuse that she felt a sudden urge to hump the Chrysler Building.

This gives me no end of amusement.

Phil, this one is for you:

Buckley hated the Beatles when they came on the scene. A reviewer once wrote that Sinatra's twitches and Elvis' thrusts (oddly, Buckley admired Elvis and his ballads), would mean that future entertainers would probably need to wrestle live octopusespie, but the Beatles had not done this, but how one wishes they did ........... to which Buckley replied:

"And how one wishes the octopuses would win."

Now, Phil, you and I both know that if Buckley had been placed in a room with the four early Beatles that he would have had his hands full (Mick Jagger called them the 'four-headed monster') matching their wit. They'd have eaten him for lunch.

However, at least Buckley (and Vidal and Mailer and the rest) could turn a witty phrase, unlike what passes for funny in today's discourse.


Again, the main thing that worries me is the degree to which he embodies ideals of grace.

The guy grew up in the USA with a name like Barack Obama, an absent black African father and a white mother. Plus, he has big ears.

I'd guess, for him, learning to deal gracefully with a variety of kinds of ignorance was a sink or swim deal.

There are a lot of northeastern liberals I know...

Yes, we all know folks from a variety of political and cultural backgrounds who make fun of other folks' accents, appearance, etc. It's called being a jerk.

That's the point.

And the fact that LBJ and Hollings were racial bigots is really, really not news.

Thanks -

Ugh: Happy Fifth Birthday Iraq War! When I was your age, I was walking by myself to kindergarten and refusing to learn the proper way to tie my shoes. But look at you! You're already killing U.S. soldiers on a regular basis, causing the deaths of untold Iraqis, pissing billions (or trillions!) of dollars down the drain, and creating new enemies of the United States on a daily basis! If you're doing all that at age 5, I can't wait to see what you're doing at 10 years old!

.....

Thanks. Now I'm really cheered up. No wonder your mother called you Ugh. What are you, alternate-universe Thullen using verbal verve to bring us down?

(Seriously. That was great. Depressing, but great.)

Hartmut has a good point. I'd add Arlen Specter, Lauch Faircloth, Tom Delay (who sounds like a character out of "Pilgrim's Progress II: How a Bill Becomes A Law"), Jeff Bingaman, Jim Bunning, Saxby Chambliss, Bob Corker...

I refuse to believe in Congressman Chocula. Unless it was some sort of sponsorship deal.

this should come as no surprise, but the Cornholes aren't much better today. VD Hanson has a couple of pieces which are both long on wind and short on insight; Cliff May first says it was a good speech, then comes back with a post wondering: if jobs going overseas is bad, why don't "they" (they who?) think it's bad when foreign workers come here to take American jobs?" (and what's up with airplane food!?); Kurtz writes a poem; and they're all convinced Obama threw his mother under the bus.

their words ooze with bad faith.

s/mother/grandmother/doh!

Jes:

Yes, I'm often tempted to stay in bed for a week, knowing Ugh has my tiny, little niche here well and fully guest-hosted, as well as holding down his full-time and more substantive job of being Ugh.

Change topic:

I don't know about all of you, but the constant debate about who was racist and who was not, Dems, Repubs, liberals, conservatives, and when they were racist, brings me to Rev. Wright's conclusion:

The whole effing place was racist, and despite fantastic progress overcoming our original sin, God damn all of it, including my own shreds of it, which are there whether I like or not and despite all of my rhetorical and practical effort to overcome.

Obama mentioned in his speech listening to his white grandmother make disparaging and racist remarks about blacks.

Talk about living with it.

The man sees the world in the kaliedoscopic, ironic, tragic shades of grey that just about all of the rest of us misrepresent as purely white or black, and I don't care how many hours he sat in a pew listening to Rev. Wright.

He gets it. If America passes up the chance to elect a President who "gets it" on the issue of race, then America is passing up the effort to "get it" regarding all of the rest of our social issues, most notably immigration and homophobia.


Thanks. Now I'm really cheered up. No wonder your mother called you Ugh. What are you, alternate-universe Thullen using verbal verve to bring us down?

(Seriously. That was great. Depressing, but great.)

I'm sorry, it's just that I'm so proud of the five year-old. Did you know that the doctor told us that he's in the 99th percentile for death and destruction? I cried tears of joy. I mean, nobody could have predicted that the little tyke could wreck the reputation of the world's sole super-power at such a young age. I'm especially happy to see that youngster's success seems to be rubbing off in his younger sibling, Subprime Crisis, who at only 9 months has managed to take down a much older and larger investment bank child, panic the financial markets romper room, and cause a recurrence of the Federal Reserve board's bed wetting habits. Wait until the terrible twos!

To roughly paraphrase kossite pastordan (I think) quoting his wife's comments on the Rev. Wright critics:

Lots of these people who are now complaining spent 50 years in a pew listening to the incendiary rhetoric of Jesus Christ, and it hasn't noticeably affected their beliefs.

Re: "throwing his grandmother under the bus"

My dear father, 78 years old, a man I love and respect has said many bigoted and racist things yet I love him still. He still calls African Americans "Negroes". He says things that make me cringe.

Does admitting this mean I am "throwing him under the bus"?

Does this mean I am unqualified to be president (I am likely unqualified for other reasons).

I guess what resonated with me about Obama's speech is the honesty and genuineness.

Pehaps I am naive. Obama is a politician. But to my ears it sounded "different" than your typical political speech.

It just frustrates me so to hear some of these silly comments like "He threw his grandmother under the bus".

John Cole:

Only in the minds of the fringe right can expressing a shared unconditional love with your grandmother be considered “throwing her under the bus.” It is almost as if the right-wing has thrown their collective minds under the bus, run over them, backed up for good measure, peeled out, and left reason and logic in a ditch for dead.

as i wrote to NRO, Obama's way of handling Wright's racism was bascially the same as his way of handling his grandmother's racism: hate the sin, love the sinner. he won't sever his relationship with either, or renounce them as people; he acknowledges their faults, but has reasons for keeping them close regardless.

the right's reaction to the former is "his refusal to throw Wright under the bus proves he's lying, again".

their reaction to the latter is "the evil, lying, racist, son of a bitch threw his grandmother under the bus!"

is there intellectual honesty on the right ?

the grace and hope and civility that Reagan summoned at his best

Huh. I guess Ronald Reagan just wasn't at his best that day he launched his campaign for president in Philadelphia, Mississippi.

For all I know his words might have summoned a boatload of grace and civility that day. But his actions spoke so loudly that I couldn't hear what he was saying. (paraphrase of a quote attributed to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

it's racism of the paternalistic, Rudyard-Kipling-White-Man's-Burden sort, which, while I find it repulsive, was, as I mentioned, common among people of people of the time.

No, Xeynon. This was not after-dinner country-club grumbling. It was material published at a time when there were vigorous and controversial efforts under way to secure basic rights for black people - efforts that were opposed with both rhetoric and violence. You may be too young to remember all that - more and more people are, I find. But the history of that time is important in evaluating the words.

By lining up on the side he did Buckley endorsed the Bull Connors and Lester Maddoxes of the world. In other words, this was not merely repugnant by virtue of its content, but also by virtue of its context. It had an effect that nothing Hollings could say in 1993, or Derbyshire today, could possibly have.

That alone makes it much worse than what Derbyshire wrote, which was my point. And of course that's not the only such passage in Buckley's published writings of the time.

The man sees the world in the kaleidoscopic, ironic, tragic shades of grey that just about all of the rest of us misrepresent as purely white or black,
Yum.
Lots of these people who are now complaining spent 50 years in a pew listening to the incendiary rhetoric of Jesus Christ, and it hasn't noticeably affected their beliefs.
Triple yum.
Hartmut, do you have a link for the European politician thing?
All the usual laud and honor to Thullen, humbly undeserving as he thinks himself to be.

Well, I disagreed with Buckley on just about everything, but everyone is a sum of his or her parts

All true.

One last comment from me about Buckley, and then I'll leave the poor dead man alone.

Buckley was erudite, funny, and brilliantly intelligent. He was accomplished in more areas than the average ten people put together.

He had excellent manners, and was in almost all cases scrupulously respectful to debating opponents.

I would imagine that this was not just window dressing. I'm sure he was, in fact, a decent guy.

He was also a guy who believed in his own superiority, and in the superiority of folks like himself, and who was more than comfortable with the privilege and entitlement that came with being one of those superior beings.

I'd have to do some homework before I'd want to be quoted on the matter, but my sense is that that instinct informs quite a bit of his politics.

It's the dark side of doctrinaire conservatism -- the belief that some folks are, simply and naturally, superior to others, that those folks should, by virtue of that superiority, rule, and that they are entitled to the privileges of ruling as by right.

So, while he was certainly head and shoulders above the slobbering yahoos who hold the fort of conservative punditry these days, my guess is that, in a pinch, he'd be as inclined as they to see the solution to our social ills to be the widespread distribution of bootstraps.

Preferably through private means.

He might even sponsor the distribution of several thousand himself, as a matter of personal charity.

I could be misjudging him. But then again, maybe not.

In any case, RIP William F Buckley.

Thanks -

Hm, we could look for politicians that acted in pornographic movies* ;-)
*seems to be more of a European thing though

There was the Italian member of Parliament who was a posrn star -- Cicciolina or something like that. Would it be easier for a female porn start than a male? How about Northern Europe vs Southern?

John Thullen: "However, at least Buckley (and Vidal and Mailer and the rest) could turn a witty phrase, unlike what passes for funny in today's discourse."

Yes, and he was prolific writer of mystery/spy novels, and had a vocabulary to die for. In addition to being one of the first conservatives to favor the decriminalization of marijuana, he also rejected the more extreme elements of conservatism, like the John Birch Society, and of course he was an early critic of the Iraq war.

John Thullen: Actually, I believe you are wrong. Vidal called him a "crypto-Nazi", which to my mind is worse than "crypro-fascist". Vidal apparently later said that he meant to say fascist, but his tongue slipped.

How can we have a conversation about pols, public figures, and funny names without mentioning Colin Powell?

the 99th percentile for death and destruction

O superlatively great thread, that has such gems in it! I am picturing Ugh sitting at home in front of his monitor, with little Iraq War tearing around the house making trouble. The apple of his daddy's* eye.

Mr. Thullen's comment of 11:51 AM wraps the whole thing up very nicely. This is, indeed, exactly what Obama was talking about.

*I do not know Ugh's gender -- "mommy's" may be more appropriate.

There's a thread going on over at Pandagon, and one interesting thing that popped up that I think should be mentioned is that the history of race relations in the US is a story of ebbs and flows, where there have been time where progress is made and times following that where that progress has been lost.

The one thing it has NOT been has been a slow, steady improvement--if you don't fight to hold onto those gains, let alone fight for further gains, YOU WILL LOSE THEM. And that's what's escaping a lot of people (including the Corner). You can't take the civil rights gains for granted--the gains could easily be lost or reversed through neglect.

Would it be easier for a female porn start than a male?

Ron Jeremy for President! :)

Hartmut, do you have a link for the European politician thing?

Cicciolina was one of the persons I had in mind. The other case was a "scandal" in Bavaria when it was found out that a candidate for the (very conservative) CSU played a leading role in an erotic comedy ("Die Stoßburg") many years earlier while still a student (she was also a former Miss Germany). In the same movie the daughter of another politician was sighted. The attempt by an inner-party rival to taint her reputation that way backfired, if I remember correctly. Recently a female candidate for District Administrator (also Bavaria and CSU) became notorious for erotic photographies (not hidden but in a reputable magazine and at the time of her candidacy).

I think there was also a former prostitute running for a high office or seat in parliament in one European country not that long ago but I can't remember the circumstances (iirc she did not make a secret out of it or even advertised the fact). I can't currently recall any case of a male politician (but there are other now prominent people, male and female, in Germany that made a few extra bucks by acting in erotic movies in the 70ies*, so I would not be surprised, if that included a later politician too)

*"I was young and needed the money" has become proverbial here for "sins of the past".

I am picturing Ugh sitting at home in front of his monitor, with little Iraq War tearing around the house making trouble. The apple of his daddy's* eye.

The Iraq war, such a terrible youngster as it is, has numerous daddies, but only a single mommy. Who that mother might be is left as an exercise to the reader.

Vidal was right: Buckley was a crypto-fascist. Sue me now, Billy, you closet-queen drunk.

Buckley would have wholly approved of Toilet Oldhattown's comments. They were exactly the kind of sleazy snark he specialized in. He never scored a clean shot on anyone in his entire effete life. We are a better species without him.

I think even the UK tabloids are beginning to edge towards the idea that people don't deserve to be condemned forever for not being virgins till they get married.

Though the Telegraph did have an amusing article earlier this week professing that it was shocked, shocked! to discover that 9 out of 10 Scouts/Guides expect to have sex before they get married... that is, membership in the Scouting Movement makes you no different from most kids aged 16-22.

Ugh— That would, could only be, The Mother of All Wars?
Though it’s hardly worthy of the inspired imagination that raised the question. Only Thullen could properly answer a question posed (cheesecake?) by Ugh.
It might be a good idea to regard porn-performance as a qualification for office. You know, nothing to hide.

Arky Vaughn: "He still calls African Americans "Negroes"."

So does rev. Wright (frequently).

Ugh— That would, could only be, The Mother of All Wars?

I was actually getting bitter and a little more literal-minded and thinking of the woman most responsible for leading the US to war in Iraq, and who also happens to be a former professor of mine (as is John Yoo!).

Arky Vaughn: "He still calls African Americans "Negroes"."
So does rev. Wright (frequently).

And you should hear what many in the gay community call each other! So?

McSame has shown the holes in his character worn through by Hagee et al. Show the same holes in Obama, or please realize It Doesn't Matter.

Or you could, ya know, read the speech. If it's not too hard for ya.

And since Bush seems so intent on savoring the beginning of the war in Iraq, is he going to have a wake when it ends?

I think it's time that National Review put him out to pasture.

That would be way wrong, because Derbyshire only says out loud what you know the rest of them really think.

Derbyshire and Coulter are simply the right-wing id, unconstrained by a decent upbringing.

John Derbyshire may be the most despicable right-wing commentator of all, which is quite an achievement.

In the 1990's he waged a years long campaign in his New York Post

John Derbyshire is not John Podheretz.

Jeff: "And you should hear what many in the gay community call each other! So?"

So - if African Americans can use the word negro without being called racist, so can her grandfather use it without being called racist. Or do you think we should have a two-tiered system of word use: one race gets to use certain words, but other races can't?


"Or you could, ya know, read the speech. If it's not too hard for ya."

Well, ya know, if you were a little more conscientious, and checked out yesterday's comments in b>That's Why I Say Hey Man Nice Speech post you, where I said: "I thought it was a very good speech, one that dramatically summed up his perceptions about racial issues. I watched it live, then on video; and read the transcript too..." you wouldn't be asking questions already answered.

"Or do you think we should have a two-tiered system of word use: one race gets to use certain words, but other races can't?"

Yes.

Except it's not "race," since there is no such thing. But members of a group get to treat each others as members of a group.

Similarly, I do not invite you to speak to me in the same language and tones, and with the same opinions, as I would invite family or loved ones to speak to me.

Similarly, as a science fiction fan, we can make fun of each other over things I will resent from an outsider.

Similarly, as a Jew, I am happy to not be offended at certain jokes about Jews from fellow Jews, but if someone I don't know is making Jew jokes, I may look askance until I understand the perspective the jokes are being made from.

Similarly, as a New Yorker, we can make jokes about our quirks that we won't like if they're meant seriously by out-of-towners.

And so on, and so forth.

Again, it is you that has this incorrect metric that somehow the powerful and the powerless and identical, and their acts and statements should be treated as if they had identical effect, although they plainly do not.

Claiming this is some kind of unfair double standard is disconnected from reality. It's not even problematic for members of a group, be it a family, a girl scout group, a bowling team, or whatever, to treat each other a bit differently, and use somewhat different language, and mock each other differently, than they'll allow from outsiders.

That's just human nature, and so long as it isn't used to hurt anyone, it's harmless and normal, Jay. Film at 11.

"that somehow the powerful and the powerless and identical"

Should be: "that somehow the powerful and the powerless are identical"

We apologize for the error.

Or do you think we should have a two-tiered system of word use: one race gets to use certain words, but other races can't?

Let's try a more specific example. If you do something and say 'What an idiot I am!' when you see that it may have been less than optimal, don't you think that has a slightly different meaning than if you did the same thing and someone else told you what an idiot you were?

There has always been a two tiered system of words, where it is possible and indeed, acceptable to deploy them to describe your in-group, but highly derogatory to be used by outsiders. This is part and parcel with the ways humans communicate.

note to john derbyshire

what is it they say about small things and small minds???

kind regards

nolungile

There has always been a two tiered system of words, where it is possible and indeed, acceptable to deploy them to describe your in-group, but highly derogatory to be used by outsiders.

And even, in some cases, required. And I mean that in a good way.

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