Some Thoughts on Huck Mania

by publius

I’m still catching up on the news, but I have a few quick thoughts on the rise of Huckabee (and the fascinating conservative backlash – see Steve Benen for a roundup).

First, regardless of what you think of Huckabee’s over-the-top religiosity, it’s shrewd politics. The knock against Huckabee has been that he lacks the organization and infrastructure to mount a serious campaign. For that very reason, I predicted (and I think I was early on this) that Huckabee would do little more than steal Romney’s thunder in the early states, thus handing the nomination to Giuliani.

What I overlooked, however, is how quickly Huckabee could assemble a viable infrastructure by becoming the evangelicals’ “guy.” Politically speaking, the great thing about social conservatives is that they come to politics already organized. Long before any candidates start organizing precincts, these people belong to churches, youth groups, choirs, etc. – i.e., permanent organizations with a great deal of trust and adhesion. For instance, if a few respected people within an Iowa Baptist church get excited about Huckabee, it’s easier to get the rest of congregation on board as well. And if these people have neighbors who attend a different church – e.g., the Methodist church down the street – well, you could see how Huck Mania could spread virally within a given religious community.

Bottom line, it’s much easier to take advantage of pre-existing infrastructure than to construct it yourself. And that’s what Huckabee seems to be doing. If he can solidify this support, it could continue delivering solid pluralities so long as multiple candidates remain in the race splitting the non-evangelical vote. [On an aside, this is precisely why union support is so vital to the Democratic Party (and why some level of “pandering” to unions is justified – it ultimately advances progressive policies).

Second, the fact that Huckabee is preaching the good news (code for “the gospel” for you godless heathens out there) doesn’t explain why he’s caught fire. Brownback, after all, pitched the same message, but never got off the ground.

I think there are a couple of explanations. For one, it’s a reflection of frustration. Evangelicals distrusted the entire first tier, and pinned their hopes on Thompson. Being the savvy, fiery campaigner that he is, he instantly pissed them all off with some careless words on abortion (for a GOP primary candidate). With Brownback out, Huckabee is the last (good) man standing.

But the more interesting explanation is that evangelicals see Huckabee as a more politically viable option than say Brownback. It’s a fascinating contrast of perspectives. As I’ll explain below, some Republicans are terrified of such an openly-religious candidate being the nominee. From their perspective, he’s too Brownbacky. But from the evangelical perspective, Huckabee is a lot more viable than someone like Brownback. Huckabee gets along with the press, appears on Bill Maher, is very personable, has executive experience, and so on. In short, they’re seeing Clinton while others are seeing Brownback. In this sense, Huckabee is like the image that is simultaneously a young pretty woman or an old hag depending on your perspective.

Third, the conservative blogger backlash to Huckabee has also been fascinating. Steve Benen has a great rundown of the various explanations for the backlash. One of these explanations comes from Kevin Drum who thinks the conservative establishment (being urban gingerbread latte drinkers themselves) is just as afraid of social conservatives as liberals are:

I think this brand of yahooism puts off mainstream urban conservatives every bit as much as it does mainstream urban liberals. They're afraid that this time, it's not just a line of patter to keep the yokels in line.

I don’t really agree with this though, largely because it gives mainstream urban conservatives too much credit. Sure, they’re not crazy about fundamentalism, but I don’t think they’re actually scared of it. In fact, I think they’re largely indifferent to it. To the extent they actually care about these social issues in the first place, they know that Huckabee’s fundamentalism will never command legislative supermajorities. And even if it did, most of them live in places (and with incomes) that keep them and their children safe from things like birth control bans or abortion restrictions. Let the poor 14-year olds in rural Mississippi fight that battle.

No, the fear is not of fundamentalism itself. The fear is losing. On some level, they know that these positions freak out mainstream America. That’s why Bush fumbled about on Roe v. Wade during the 2004 debates and could only bring himself to speak in code (“Dred Scott”). The backlash shows that these people – like much of the GOP establishment – are ashamed of this coalition. They're happy to make out with them behind the football bleachers on Saturday night, but ignore them in the lunchroom on Monday.

But still, the GOP needs them. And so the deal has been that “the crazies” stay below-radar in return for below-radar policies (e.g., judges, denying funding to international organizations who don’t believe in abstinence-based policies). Huckabee is a threat because he violates the terms of the unspoken deal.

Comments

[allmaya]

Hmmmm. Smells like social class to me. The urban latte drinking conservatives undoubtedly have a condescending attitude (based on class biases) toward the blue collar folks in the megachurches in the exurbs.

But what the urban conservatives really fear about Huckabee is that he may go off the reservation and not support policies which shovel even more money to the wealthiest 1%.

[Tom]

That, and he'll lose.

[Sebastian Holsclaw]

Not another one from Arkansas!

[Hartmut]

Yeah, some states are clearly underrepresented in providing presidents and vice presidents ;-)
An interesting observation form uggabugga: Huckabee does not allow his old sermons from his time as a baptist minister to become available to the public. Anything too embarassing in them?

[KipEsquire]

"They're happy to make out with them behind the football bleachers on Saturday night, but ignore them in the lunchroom on Monday."

The analogy I think you're looking for is: They're happy to fondle each other in a Minneapolis airport mens room...

[OCSteve]

I don’t really agree with this though, largely because it gives mainstream urban conservatives too much credit. Sure, they’re not crazy about fundamentalism, but I don’t think they’re actually scared of it. In fact, I think they’re largely indifferent to it.

I’m not exactly sure what a “mainstream urban conservative” is, but…

We conservatives have our whackos just as liberals have theirs. Most of the time they are background noise, so from that perspective I think you’re correct (indifference). Consider the obviously crazy homeless guy preaching on the sidewalk. You can walk by him every day without thinking too much about him. Then one day you wake up and discover he’s not only running for mayor but seems to have substantial support…

It all comes back to our screwy primary system IMO. Nationally there aren’t enough fundamentalists for him to be elected. But if enough of them are concentrated in key states he can become the candidate.

Then you’ve got Ron Paul raising $6M in a single day. That’s obviously a lot of support nationally. Who are those people?

None of this bothers me too much. Having written off Republicans for this cycle I can just enjoy the show for the most part.

[Jesurgislac]

We conservatives have our whackos just as liberals have theirs.

And you conservatives put your whackos into government.

[Bernard Yomtov]

I think Publius is correct that the fear is losing, and not only losing, but losing big-time.

With Huckabee as the nominee we could see major Democratic gains in both houses. I suspect that there are conservatives who are resigned to probably losing the White House, but hope to keep enough seats in Congress to block dramatic actions. These are the people terrified of a Huckabee nomination.

[ThirdGorchBro]

But what the urban conservatives really fear about Huckabee is that he may go off the reservation and not support policies which shovel even more money to the wealthiest 1%.

I think allmaya has it. It saddens me to admit it, but the business wing of the Republican coalition has become just as dogmatic as the social cons and the neocons. They won't have anything to do with raising taxes to balance the budget and/or increase social services to the poor at the expense of big business and the wealthy.

And for that matter, the neocons distrust Huckabee, too. He's not pro-torture and pro-endless war enough for their taste.

[OCSteve]

Jes: Not exactly an elected position. Not exactly news that this administration is brimming with unqualified lackies. And as far as putting our whackos into government, that’s a little ironic coming from a citizen of a country that has returned George Galloway to parliament for two decades. ;)

[ThirdGorchBro]

Heh. When I first clicked on Jes' link, I read it as "William J. Bryan." I was gonna complain that she couldn't find any recent examples.

[Gary Farber]

"and why some level of 'pandering' to unions is justified – it ultimately advances progressive policies"

I always had the idea it was justified because we were for improving the lot of working people, actually.

[keatssycamore]

Just want to agree with what allmaya, what riles the business wing is that Huckabee talks about ALL the stuff the Bible says Jesus taught and believed.

And the money-changers up in the temples on the Potomac and on the Street are none to pleased.

[hairshirthedonist]

You guys are starting to make this Huckabee character sound like a decent guy - almost Edwards-like (Edwardsian?).

[Model 62]

Then you’ve got Ron Paul raising $6M in a single day. That’s obviously a lot of support nationally. Who are those people?

They are people who hate establishment politicians (as Huckabee's supporters do), but don't consider themselves Christianists, that's who. Both are kindred spirits of Howard Dean's supporters four years ago.

Eventually, Huckawannabees and Ron Paulists will have to accept whatever establishment candidate the party forces on them.

[gwangung]

You guys are starting to make this Huckabee character sound like a decent guy

Never fear. Anybody who'll release a serial rapist/murderer because it'll screw a political rival could never make it as a decent guy.

And that's not even counting the anti-science sentiment...

[Jesurgislac]

OCSteve: Not exactly news that this administration is brimming with unqualified lackies.

Goalpost move. Boykin may or may not be an unqualified lackey. He is an anti-Islamic outspoken whacko, and he was appointed to Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence.

And as far as putting our whackos into government, that’s a little ironic coming from a citizen of a country that has returned George Galloway to parliament for two decades.

George Galloway is less of a whacko than any of the current Republican candidates for President. By British standards he's mildly eccentric for an MP - but unlike your American politicians, MPs need to have a certain modicum of intelligence and political savvy just to get elected. Our worst MP would be above average in your Congress: our political system imposes more electoral pressure than yours does. (I never liked George Galloway personally, and his politics are by British standards quite a jump from mine. But it was great watching him administer a verbal trouncing to your Senate committee: they were obviously so unused to dealing with a politician who has to be able to think on his feet!)

And that's my random bit of patriotism for the day. Our politicians can beat up yours! :-p

[Jackmormon]

I’m not exactly sure what a “mainstream urban conservative” is, but…

The entire staff of NRO appears to live in New York City. Limbaugh shuttles between NYC and urban Florida. Coulter divides her time between NYC and DC. Tre/vino lives in SF. Even those Powerline guys live in urban Minnesota.

It's all about the ressentiment for that variety of conservative. I don't see Jonah Goldberg settling in comfortably in, say, rural Alabama.

[Anarch]

They're essentially the "workers of the mind" of the Republican Party, the bourgeois vanguard of the conservatariat.

[John Thullen]

Where to start .........

God, forget the popcorn. I can't eat I'm so enthralled with the Repup comedy up on the screen.

In my local paper today, Jay Ambrose, the conservative pundit, calls Huckabee's positions on issues "leftist".

Why write or talk at all if words are bleached of all meaning and convey .. nothing?

Leftist?

Let me do my part to restore the language: Jay Ambrose is a jacka3s, by which I convey the original meaning: he is the braying scion of sterile mulishness, who, together with his brothers and sisters, is good for nothing but kicking down the sides of barns and carrying water for the powers that be. He is a small, domestic animal resembling the horse but with shorter ears and a longer mane; an as#s. He is a foolish, stupid, obstinate person; a blockhead, bozo, cuckoo, fathead, goofball, twat; a zany; a goose. He stars on a T.V. show named after himself featuring people performing various, dangerous, ridiculous, and self-injuring stunts and pranks, like inserting his head up the other end of himself, not to be distinquished from the braying end.

That goes for Jonah Goldberg, too.

[von]

I don’t really agree with this though, largely because it gives mainstream urban conservatives too much credit. Sure, they’re not crazy about fundamentalism, but I don’t think they’re actually scared of it. In fact, I think they’re largely indifferent to it. To the extent they actually care about these social issues in the first place, they know that Huckabee’s fundamentalism will never command legislative supermajorities. And even if it did, most of them live in places (and with incomes) that keep them and their children safe from things like birth control bans or abortion restrictions. Let the poor 14-year olds in rural Mississippi fight that battle.

This really has very little to do with it. The problem is that Huckabee sounds like John Edwards on fiscal matters, which is anathema to the main street/wall street aspect of the Republican coalition. What you're missing is that many mainstream conservatives put a higher priority on fiscal matters (as compared to social matters) than the talking heads would have you believe. Most Republicans may feel a certain way about school prayer, but the part of the Republican coalition that cares passionately about it is very low.

For me, of course, Huckabee represents the worst of all worlds: I disagree with him on social matters and I disagree with him on economic and fiscal matters as well.

[John Thullen]

Typepad made me spell jackass the wrong way, I think, and here's the second half of the comment.

See, Huckabee is the Alien who evolved (he can't even believe it) into something just a little less ridiculously vicious than your average Republican candidate, much to the disappointment of the Republican Party whose only true mission in life is to cut their own taxes and kill or render useless as much of government as possible either by implanting their noxious seed throughout the body politic or dissolving government by salivating acid from their triple-snapping jaws.

Huckabbe, who should learn how to spell his own name, is the cuckoo who forgot to stop reading the Bible after he was done with the Old Testament, where smiting, punishing, angry kabob barbecuing, casting out, and joyless begetting are the chief activities.

No, somehow he got his hands on the New testament and found out what Jesus might do, which is the awful nightmare for the denizens of the Club for Growth for Me and the Kudlowian wing of the Republican Party and the Norquistian Society for Underwater Oxygen Deprivation in Bathtubs.

Huckabee is the pro-Christ Anti-Christ in the Party of the anti-Christ Anti-Christs.

He must be stopped.

Unless he wins the primaries. Then Mitt Romney will declare Mike an honorary Mormon and Rudy Ghouliani will lend Mike his honorary firehat and the keys to his pad, and John McCain will chuckle that mysterious all-knowing chuckle, and Fred Thompson will glare all jowly at liberals who criticize Mike and the Club for Cancerous Growths and the American Association of American Americanism for the Defeat of unAmerican unAmericanism and the IRS will fall into line because the tearing asunder of this weird, noxious coalition of the pious and the mean that would make Linclon throw up in his beard cannnot be allowed to occur.

Besides, none of the conservatives, who are bluffing, will vote for Hillary the kinky Christmas tree decorator or Osama Bina Crackhead.

P.S. All conservatives here at Obsidian resemble no one mentioned in this comment, which really cramps my powers of generalization.

[Jesurgislac]

von: What you're missing is that many mainstream conservatives put a higher priority on fiscal matters (as compared to social matters) than the talking heads would have you believe.

That would be because the "fiscal matter" of keeping the rich richer and the poor poorer and the middle class desperately uncertain and clinging, while certainly a conservative high priority, is impossible to get most people to vote for unless you lie a lot. It's also useful to wave distracting flags about "morality" and "terrorism". That many people vote for politicians whose real aim is to keep most of the people who voted for them in grinding poverty and most of the rest in desperate financial uncertainty, because the politicians knew to mouth the right words about being "pro-life" or "strong on national defense", is one of the tragic ironies of American politics.

Conservatives have a big disadvantage: they can't afford to explain honestly what their fiscal policies are. If people understood what they intended and what the implications were for people on ordinary incomes, they wouldn't vote for them.

Huckabee is taking advantage of all the right "morality" signals for the poor suckers who vote against their fiscal interests for conservatives - but anyone who actually cares about sensible fiscal policies would be voting for a Democrat. ;-)

[John Thullen]

Typepad made me spell jackass the wrong way, I think, and here's the second half of the comment.

See, Huckabee is the Alien who evolved (he can't even believe it) into something just a little less ridiculously vicious than your average Republican candidate, much to the disappointment of the Republican Party whose only true mission in life is to cut their own taxes and kill or render useless as much of government as possible either by implanting their noxious seed throughout the body politic or dissolving government by salivating acid from their triple-snapping jaws.

Huckabbe, who should learn how to spell his own name, is the cuckoo who forgot to stop reading the Bible after he was done with the Old Testament, where smiting, punishing, angry kabob barbecuing, casting out, and joyless begetting are the chief activities.

No, somehow he got his hands on the New testament and found out what Jesus might do, which is the awful nightmare for the denizens of the Club for Growth for Me and the Kudlowian wing of the Republican Party and the Norquistian Society for Underwater Oxygen Deprivation in Bathtubs.

Huckabee is the pro-Christ Anti-Christ in the Party of the anti-Christ Anti-Christs.

He must be stopped.

Unless he wins the primaries. Then Mitt Romney will declare Mike an honorary Mormon and Rudy Ghouliani will lend Mike his honorary firehat and the keys to his pad, and John McCain will chuckle that mysterious all-knowing chuckle, and Fred Thompson will glare all jowly at liberals who criticize Mike and the Club for Cancerous Growths and the American Association of American Americanism for the Defeat of unAmerican unAmericanism and the IRS will fall into line because the tearing asunder of this weird, noxious coalition of the pious and the mean that would make Linclon throw up in his beard cannnot be allowed to occur.

Besides, none of the conservatives, who are bluffing, will vote for Hillary the kinky Christmas tree decorator or Osama Bina Crackhead.

P.S. No conservatives here at Obsidian resemble anyone mentioned in this comment, which really cramps my powers of generalization.

[John Thullen]

Typepad made me spell jacka3s the wrong way, I think, and here's the second half of the comment.

See, Huckabee is the Alien who evolved (he can't even believe it) into something just a little less ridiculously vicious than your average Republican candidate, much to the disappointment of the Republican Party whose only true mission in life is to cut their own taxes and kill or render useless as much of government as possible either by implanting their noxious seed throughout the body politic or dissolving government by salivating acid from their triple-snapping jaws.

Huckabbe, who should learn how to spell his own name, is the cuckoo who forgot to stop reading the Bible after he was done with the Old Testament, where smiting, punishing, angry kabob barbecuing, casting out, and joyless begetting are the chief activities.

No, somehow he got his hands on the New Testament and found out what Jesus might do, which is the awful nightmare for the denizens of the Club for Growth for Me and the Kudlowian wing of the Republican Party and the Norquistian Society for Underwater Oxygen Deprivation in Bathtubs.

Huckabee is the pro-Christ Anti-Christ in the Party of the anti-Christ Anti-Christs.

He must be stopped.

Unless he wins the primaries. Then Mitt Romney will declare Mike an honorary Mormon and Rudy Ghouliani will lend Mike his honorary firehat and the keys to his pad, and John McCain will chuckle that mysterious all-knowing chuckle, and Fred Thompson will glare all jowly at liberals who criticize Mike and the Club for Cancerous Growths and the American Association of American Americanism for the Defeat of unAmerican unAmericanism and the IRS will fall into line because the tearing asunder of this weird, noxious coalition of the pious and the mean that would make Linclon throw up in his beard cannnot be allowed to occur.

Besides, none of the conservatives, who are bluffing, will vote for Hillary the kinky Christmas tree decorator or Osama Bina Crackhead.

P.S. No conservatives here at Obsidian resemble anyone mentioned in this comment, which really cramps my powers of generalization. In fact, I don't even recognize Huckabee in this comment, who is whatever comes out his mouth the last time he spoke.

[liberal japonicus]

My university was co-ed, but shortly before I arrived there, the women had a curfew and had to be in their dorm by a reasonable hour (I think it was 10, though that sounds scandalously late) (It also, until 1976, refused to celebrate the 4th of July, because that was the date that Vicksburg fell) At any rate, one of my profs told me about when he was on the committee to review the cases of those coeds who had broken the rules. One very contrite couple came and explained that they were watching TV together and had both drowsed off and when they woke up, they had missed the curfew.

The committee thought this was a reasonable explanation and were feeling sympathetic, so one of them asked what they did when the realized that the woman had missed curfew. The male student said, "Well sir, we jumped up, pulled our clothes on and went straight back to the dorm".

[John Thullen]

Huckabee believes in taxing school prayer. ;)

Huckabbe, who ought to learn how to spell his own name, is the cuckoo who forgot to stop reading the Wible after the 7ld $Testament, where smiting, punishing, angry kabob barbecuing, and joyless begetting are the chief activities.

Somehow he got his hands on the *ew Estiment and found out what Jesus might do, which is the nightmare for the denizens of the Club for Growth for Me and the Kudlowian wing of the Republican Party and the Norquistian Society for Oxygen Deprivation in Bathtubs.

Huckabee is the pro-5hrist Anti-6Ch6i6t in the party of the anti-C6r6is9t anti-$Ch?i%ts.

He must be stopped.

Unless he wins the primaries. Then Mitt Romney will make him an honorary Mormon and Rudy Ghouliani will lend him his honorary firehat and the keys to his pad, and John McCain will chuckle that mysterious all-knowing chuckle and Fred Thompson will glare from amid his jowls at those who criticize the Huck and the Club for Cancerous Growths and the "American Association of American Americanism for the Defeat of unAmerican unAmericanism Like the Death Tax Although We're O.K. With Death" will fall into line because the tearing asunder of this weird, noxious coalition of the pious, the mean, and the cheap cannot be allowed.

The Huck's campaign rhetoric will switch to destroying government the day after he wins the primaries.

Besides, despite their bluffing, the conservatives mentioned in the post won't vote for Hillary the kinky Xmas tree decorator or Osama Bina Crackhead, who will both raise taxes.

I misspelled certain terms to elude filters.

[John Thullen]

Huckabee believes in taxing school prayer. ;)

Huckabbe, who ought to learn how to spell his own name, is the cuckoo who forgot to stop reading the Wible after the 7ld $estament, where smiting, punishing, angry kabob barbecuing, and joyless begetting are the chief activities.

Somehow he got his hands on the *ew Estiment and found out what Jesus might do, which is the nightmare for the denizens of the Club for Growth for Me and the Kudlowian wing of the Republican Party and the Norquistian Society for Oxygen Deprivation in Bathtubs.

Huckabee is the pro-5hrist Anti-6Ch6i6t in the party of the anti-C6r6is9t anti-$Ch?i%ts.

He must be stopped.

Unless he wins the primaries. Then Mitt Romney will make him an honorary Mormon and Rudy Ghouliani will lend him his honorary firehat and the keys to his pad, and John McCain will chuckle that mysterious all-knowing chuckle and Fred Thompson will glare from amid his jowls at those who criticize the Huck and the Club for Cancerous Growths and the "American Association of American Americanism for the Defeat of unAmerican unAmericanism Like the Death Tax Although We're O.K. With Death" will fall into line because the tearing asunder of this weird, noxious coalition of the pious, the mean, and the cheap cannot be allowed.

The Huck's campaign rhetoric will switch to destroying government the day after he wins the primaries.

Besides, despite their bluffing, the conservatives mentioned in the post won't vote for Hillary the kinky Xmas tree decorator or Osama Bina Crackhead, who will both raise taxes.

I misspelled certain terms to elude filters.

[John Thullen]

Huckabbbe, who ought to learn how to spell his own name, will tax school prayer ;)

LJ, that story is even funnier on this thread.......

Spam filters are very Republican today.

[trilobite]

Trying to get a handle on this movement, I'm reading David Kuo's memoir, Tempting Faith. What strikes me most about the book, which I'm now about halfway thru (Bush just elected), is that after several years in the middle of DC power politics, after having successfully lobbied for a place at the table for faith-based charities, worked for 2 Senators, etc., Kuo seems to know absolutely nothing about policy. He knows a LOT about politics -- who to talk to, how to write a speech, where to give it, how to massage egos, who gives money...but seems to have zero interest in legislation unless someone has told him a particular bill will help the poor and/or the evangelical movement.

It's not just that he seems never to have noticed the authoritarian and punishing side of the Republican and conservative movement, nor to have an opinion on any aspect of foreign policy. After all, you can't be an expert on everything, and he had his own goals -- to help the poor and mend what he saw as society-wide discontent and demoralization (in both senses of the word.). But he also seems not merely ignorant, but incurious as to how changes in financial and labor laws may have helped create the very poverty and anomie he decries. When he looks for root causes, he asks only whether there is a way for more people to Find Jeezus.

The whole idea of structural causes of social problems is a closed book to him, except as a tool to beat up on welfare programs. People suffer because they are a) poor and/or b) poor in spirit, and you fix it by giving them a) money, and b) religion. George Bush is Good because he Cares and Has Faith. He is Not So Good because somehow he didn't prioritize charity enough. That George Bush's whole approach to life is to expand and maintain a toxic global class system is not on the radar screen.

Civil liberties also aren't on the radar screen, they're not mentioned at all. You don't need privacy, a fair trial, or a vote when you've got Jeeezus, I suppose.

I can understand this approach to life, and even sympathize with it, but I think it's tragically wrong, dangerous, and self-defeating. I'm afraid that Huckabee represents more of the same. Even if he himself is genuinely compassionate, I don't trust anyone from that camp to make policy.

[Jon H]

"No, the fear is not of fundamentalism itself. The fear is losing. "

No, the fear is that Huckabee will win the nomination because he is insufficiently belligerent.

If Huckabee were as belligerent as Giuliani and wanted to 'double gitmo' and had NPod advising him, the GOP would be falling all over each other to support him.

[von]

That would be because the "fiscal matter" of keeping the rich richer and the poor poorer and the middle class desperately uncertain and clinging, while certainly a conservative high priority, is impossible to get most people to vote for unless you lie a lot.

I understand that it's easier to deal with cartoon villians rather than to try to understand the other side.

[Jon H]

von wrote: "What you're missing is that many mainstream conservatives put a higher priority on fiscal matters (as compared to social matters) than the talking heads would have you believe."

Really, von?

You haven't paid much attention to the last seven years, have you?

Did mainstream conservatives merely hide Clinton's surplus?

[Jon H]

von wrote: "I understand that it's easier to deal with cartoon villians rather than to try to understand the other side."

By their fruits shall ye know them, as the saying goes.

And the results of Republican rule fit pretty close with Jesurgislac's model.

[cleek]

apparently the biggest problem with conservatism is that nobody's tried it yet.

[John Thullen]

"nobody's tried it yet"

Quiet, our luck may run out.

[Sebastian Holsclaw]

"Conservatives have a big disadvantage: they can't afford to explain honestly what their fiscal policies are."

Sure they can. It is really much easier than liberals. We want you to keep more of what you earn, and we won't go out of our way to make you feel guilty if you want to earn more.

It is constantly amazing how much strawmanning you get away with Jesurgislac. I honestly can't think of how far I would have to go to get to equivalently ridiculous statements about liberals compared to what you say about conservatives. "Liberals want to take your money because they think you are too stupid to know what to do with it," is close but still doesn't get there.

[wonkie]

I've been enjoying this show, too.

I also think that the dislike of Huck expressed byy righhtwing bloggers is a relflection of thhe fear that the robberbarons that run thhe party hhave thhat HHuck is a populist. The NRC sent out its orders to thhe right blogisphere: attack Huck! Attack him as too liberal, weak on Iraq, a tax and spender! So the righht blogisphere obeys, they being mostly suck ups to the robber barons.

Upthread someone (von?) mentioned thhat non-religious Republicans are mostly motivated by concern for their money and thhe nation's finances. (Micheal Moore says that if you want to communicate withh a Republican you hhave to get past the fear that you are after thier money). There are two groups of money-motivated Republicanns: the ones who think the fedral budget should be managed they way thhey manage their own budget,-- ie donn't spend money you don't have--and the Norquist followers thhat want to bankrupt thhe governnment inorder to force an end to the New Deal. There are more of the former than the latter, but the latter are in the leadership and thhe former have, for the most part, failed to notice. It's high time they did since the Republican party hasn't been the party of fiscal conservatism for thirty years. Ironic that thhe fiscal conservatives wouuld get excited by a threat to their money comingfrom from Huck when their own party had been deliberately screwing up thhe budget for decades.

But, whatever, Huck is still a thhreat to the object of their worship. So it will be very entertainning to me if the evangelicals succeed in foisting him on the party.

It will aslo be interesting to see how the eveangelicals react if they aren't successful. Will they line up behind Romney? Or will they stay home?

My worry is that Huck mighht be more appealing to independents than we think. God help us if he actually got elelcted and not because he mighht spend ouur money.

[Jesurgislac]

Von: I understand that it's easier to deal with cartoon villians rather than to try to understand the other side.

Yes, that's another Republican tactic: turn the other side into cartoon villains, and idealize the real villains of your own side.

In 1979, the wealthiest 1% of households in the US owned 20.5% of the nation's wealth.

After 12 years of Republican Presidents, and 8 years of a right-wing Democrat, the wealthiest 1% owned 38.1% of the nation's wealth. (From this site - which also includes the interesting stat that in 2006, the wealthiest 10% of households in the US owned 69.8% of the nation's wealth.)

Are you at all interested in understanding your own side, Von - why government policies are made to make the rich richer and the poor poorer? Or would you rather turn your own side into cartoon angels without looking too closely at what their fiscal policies are actually about, and demonize the opposition?

[Jesurgislac]

Sebastian: We want you to keep more of what you earn, and we won't go out of our way to make you feel guilty if you want to earn more.

Right. That would be why conservative governments put taxes up for people on a low income - who really do earn their money, and lower taxes for people on a high income, especially people who have unearned income coming in... You really don't know much about conservative fiscal policy, do you?

[someotherdude]

Social Democrats, USA
Copyright: 1996, SD, USA

Kristol described the current Republican coalition as consisting primarily of two main strains: economic and social conservatives. The economic conservatives are anti-state and the social conservatives are anti-liberal who view liberalism "as corroding and subverting the virtues that they believe must be the bedrock of decent society." He believes that the differences between the economic conservatives and the social conservatives produce "tensions" between the two groups. Kristol's long range view is that the social conservatives represent "an authentic mass movement that gathers strength with every passing year."

from:
Splitting the Republican Coalition

[someotherdude]

The Huck doesn't want his old sermons released because Fundie Southern Baptists have hardcore views about Christians (Good white people) and non-Christians (The Outsider).

Here is one of many places in the Bible in which the spiritual condition of those who are without faith in Christ is represented as death. Unbelievers are obviously alive physically, emotionally, intellectually, but, at the same time, they are dead. As Paul puts it, they were dead, even while, in the next verse they lived and followed the ways of this world. These are dead people who are alive and active. It is a powerful way of describing their spiritual situation, their situation before God, of course, precisely because of the nature of death as separation, disintegration, and hopeless finality. Already in Eden, God had told Adam that if he ate of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil he would die. And he did die, even thought he did not cease to be physically alive in the world. And from that point onward "life" in the Bible is not understood as existence, pure and simple, and "death" is not understood as annihilation or destruction. "To be dead" in the Bible is not non-existence but, rather, a condition of inner disintegration, of thorough brokenness as a human being, an existence characterized by a failure to attain to the true purpose, character, and fulfillment of human life, made, as it is, in the image of God. It is this understanding of death, side by side with the more ordinary meaning of the term, that accounts for countless expressions in the Bible, expressions like Paul's speaking of the "life worthy to be called life" or the Lord saying to a seeker, "Let the dead bury their dead," or the sinister sound of the phrase "the second death" in Rev. 20:14. In none of these cases is death used of the literal passing from physical life, still less of complete destruction and annihilation. Instead the term is used of a miserable and benighted condition of existence. "The wages of sin is death…" the Scripture says, and that death is already with people and in people while they remain existing in this world. In this sense it is possible for the dead, the truly and profoundly dead, to be full of life and activity. But their existence must lead to ruin and not to the life that is worthy to be called life - that is, it must, unless the grace of God intervenes. Later on, in 4:18, the same idea is expressed without the use of the term "death." Speaking of the unbelieving world, Paul says, "they are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God…" That is what death means in 2:1.

[wonkie]

Yes conservative politicians lie about their fiscal policy. Yes, it's because they have to.

Supposedly conservatives want to be prudent about spending the tax payer's money so that we can keep as much as possible of what we earn. That sounds nice but there isn't a sinngleconserrvative politician annywhere that actually goes to Congress to work toward that policy.

Some conservatives in Congress are Norquist followers and wnat to cut taxes for therich while spendinng for everything inncluding two wars in order to bankrupt the governnment so at some point innt the future a whole swath of programs will have to be eliminatied (Medicare, Medicaid, farms etc). The Norquist followers have to lie or no one would vote for them.

The other conservatives, the cut taxes and keep on spending because it's the path of leasst resistance ones, also have to lie. They lie they tell is that they will cut pork or social spending or wasteful spendinng. TThey won't. In order to get elelcted they have to support the pork, social, and wasteful spending in their own district. In order to get other Conngresspeoiple to support their pork they ahhve tovote for the other guy's pork. So they deliver on the cvut taxses part of their promise but the cut spending part is a lie.

Democrats onthe other hand are honest. They say thhat if you want something, you have to have a tax base sufficiennt to pay for it.

James Joyner had a cartoon the other day. It showed two politicianns. The Dem had a button that said "Tax and Spend" The Republicanhad a button that said "Cut taxes and spend".

Except that no conservative ever admits that they want to cut taxes annd spend. So they lie.

[someotherdude]

This is why it is easier for your typical right-wing Christian to embrace cells and zygotes as life needing protectition while embracing the mass-death of millions of Middle Easterners as life, that is not really life at all.

Fused with your typical racist views of your right-wing alpha-males and you get quite a dangerous nationalist movement.

[russell]

There are two groups of money-motivated Republicanns: the ones who think the fedral budget should be managed they way thhey manage their own budget,-- ie donn't spend money you don't have--and the Norquist followers thhat want to bankrupt thhe governnment inorder to force an end to the New Deal. There are more of the former than the latter, but the latter are in the leadership

This analysis seems 100% right on to me.

My personal take on it is that I'd be happy to discuss policy with folks in the first camp anytime, but that folks in the second camp should be run out of government on a rail, with tarring and feathering optional.

von or Sebastian, I'd be interested in your thoughts here. Does wonkie's analysis align with your own?

Thanks -

[trilobite]

I understand that it's easier to deal with cartoon villians rather than to try to understand the other side.

Von, several years ago, when Trent Lott made his little gaffe about Strom Thurmond's Presidential run, I finally gave up making excuses for the R party leadership. No, I said, I'm not going to bend over backwards to find innocuous reasons why so many of them keep end up saying things like this. They say things like this because they are racist, or don't think racism is important. Full stop. The rest of the party puts up with it, or encourages it, for the same reasons.

Sometimes, most times, things really are just what they keep looking like. Bill Clinton is a skirt-chaser, Hillary Clinton is power-hungry, most politicians lie sometimes to keep the voters off their backs;

and Republican policies keep benefiting the rich at the expense of the poor and the middle class because most of the leadership either wants it that way or doesn't care. And their party lets them get away with it for the same reasons. I've heard all the excuses in the world, all the absurd economic theories for how this will grow the economy and trickle down, and yet it keeps on keeping on. I'm done with excuses.

'Doesn't care,' can include, is baffled by bullsh*t, and I think that does happen a lot. Franks's book, What's The Matter With Kansas speculates that the pulpit-pounding on "values issues" obscures, perhaps deliberately, the fact that government is much better at handling money than morals, so that most people who get their politics from the pulpit simply lose track of the idea of using government to improve workplaces, financial institutions, trade balance, etc. That, together with the profound innumeracy of the American public, makes pulling the wool over most people's eyes relatively easy. Look how long Bush kept spinning a non-existent Social Security plan.

[Sebastian Holsclaw]

My take on American fiscal politics in general is this:

There is about 30-35% of voters who think there are lots and lots of things that the government should be doing and are willing to pay for it with much higher taxes (though many of these want it to be much higher taxes on other people).

There is about 30-35% of voters who think there are lots of things the government shouldn't be doing and are willing to cut those government functions so that everyone can get lower taxes (though many of those want the cuts to be from things that never significantly benefit them).

Both of these groups have a principled side, though in many cases it can be tinged with selfishness (about who pays or who gets benefits cut).

There is another group of about 30-35% of voters who want great new benefits for themselves and lower taxes for themselves. Democrats pander to them by saying they will give lots of benefits and will raise taxes on other people. Republicans pander to them by saying that they will cut taxes for them. This group is wildly confused about how much things actually cost (as opposed to the sometimes marginal confusion about costs that occurs in the other two groups.) Many people in this group call themselves 'conservative' and many call themselves 'liberal'. But really they are just expressing their similar levels of selfishness in different modes.

Good politicians would try to convince them to join one of the other groups. Actual politicians in the US don't typically do that. They latch on to one of the more responsible groups (who can't vote for the other side) and then pander to the irresponsible middle.

What actually happens with fiscal policy is that the party out of power pretends to be concerned with fiscal responsibility until it gains power (see the Gingrich revolution and the recent neck-breaking turnabout from people like Krugman). When the economy does fantastically well, it sometimes works out. When not, not so much.

[cleek]

"To be dead" in the Bible is not non-existence but, rather, a condition of inner disintegration, of thorough brokenness as a human being, an existence characterized by a failure to attain to the true purpose, character, and fulfillment of human life, made, as it is, in the image of God.

maybe that's what Huck was talking about when he said:

It is now difficult to keep track of the vast array of publicly endorsed and institutionally supported aberrations — from homosexuality and pedophilia to sadomasochism and necrophilia.

[John Thullen]

"the ones who think the federal budget should be managed the way they manage their own budget."

I'm sorry, but the analogy of the government as a family sitting around the kitchen table clipping coupons and cutting on back on orthodonture to buy the skidoo is craptomogrific.

Which Republicans or anyone else in America, outside of Henry David Thoreau, have no mortgage, no credit card debt, no student debt, no corporate debt, no money market funds and Treasury bond funds which invest in Federal debt, no auto loans, life insurance not borrowed against, no investments in leveraged buyout candidates, all of which when added up would turn out to be an unfunded liability, and since families have no taxing authority (though I'm sure some famililies ARE rather taxing), don't make me stop this car and come back there.

If the government is a family with a weekly budget, then my family and I will sit down around the kitchen table tonight and cut out the hostilities with and the carpet bombing of the neighbors by slashing the Defense budget and the extra appropriations for the Iraq War. We're just a little short this month because Junior lost his paper route and I forgot my keys to the Treasury printing presses.

Oh yeah, Grandma, we're privatizing Medicare and I see your Social Security check has stopped arriving, so out you go, parasite!

Government-equals-a-family-sitting-around- the-kitchen-table is bushwah rhetoric thought up by Grover Norquist's cleverer cousins.

Government isn't a business either.

Families aren't a business either, though I'm sure there are some who have fired the dog and had him escorted him to the street by a security guard.

It's government, which might be able to borrow a few management principles from business and a few table manners from families.

But that's it.

Now, sit up and eat your peas!

[John Thullen]

"necrophilia" to Huckabee and the other R candidates means "Death Tax!!!"

I think Obama endorsed it.

See, whereas Bush speaks in code to the religious wing of the party, Huckabee will speak in code to the fiscal family guys wing of the party.

The Goldman Sachs family, and the Merrill Lynch's down the street who never cut their lawn. Don't forget the News Corp. family and their pesky kids, Neil, O'Reilly, and Rupe Jr. And the Norquist's who seem nice but look so serious when they go to their mailbox. And there's the gunfire in the middle of the night.