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August 08, 2007

Comments

"If you have discovered actual evidence for Mormons being more likely to be pacifists than not"

I'm pretty sure I haven't even hinted at Mormons being 50%+ pacifist/strongly anti-war. I think part of the problem is that we have people dramatically overreading my very modest claim.

Sebastian, I think it would have been very interesting if Romney had said, "I begged my sons to join the army or marines and do their part to save the world from the muslim menace, the biggest threat to the world there has ever been. But I had raised them to be mormon pacifists, and they all refused." That would have been interesting.

But instead he came very close to Cheney's line, "I had other priorities.".

[mimic] My sons didn't see it as a good career move. They decided it was far more important to work on my campaign for president. They made the right choice. [/mimic]

This deserves at least as much coverage as a previous Romney's claim to be brainwashed. Somebody should make sure all the troops hear it. And all the other voters.

It deserves more coverage than "I voted for the war before I voted against it.".

I've been reading ObWi on more days than not since Publius moved here from Legal Fiction, and I think this may be the most absurd comment thread I've seen yet. Not that that's a bad thing. I love Monty Python and Coen brothers movies and such, so this is right up my alley. In closing, I just want you all to know that I have found out that Mitt Romney uses Pepsodent toothpaste. I knew some Pepsodent users a few years back who told me they disliked getting their hair cut. Mitt Romney in '08!

Sebastian,

""If you have discovered actual evidence for Mormons being more likely to be pacifists than not"

I'm pretty sure I haven't even hinted at Mormons being 50%+ pacifist/strongly anti-war. I think part of the problem is that we have people dramatically overreading my very modest claim."

The two statements aren't the same. For example, if 10% of the general population are pacifists, and 20% of Mormons are pacifists, then Mormons are more likely to be pacifists, which is all Jes said.

Since my knowledge of Mormon beliefs and interactions with Mormons are very slight, I have no useful knowledge on the topic at hand, and would love a new topic.

I’m just going to repeat.

Many religious groups in the United States tended to embrace “pacifism” relative to the amount of their membership would be forced to serve (a general draft would affect the newer sects much more profoundly) and relative to the amount of their membership would benefit financially.

Jehovah Witnesses, Mennonites, and Amish seemed to be the most consistently pacifist.

War profiteering from the Mexican-American War, Civil War, Spanish-American War, Philippine-American War, World War 1, seemed to be rampant.

WW2 seemed to be a serious war and war profiteering was punished.

Korean War seemed to be a different war...the rise of the defense industry (after Eisenhower's warnings) really grew on the back of South-East Asians. And then finally Latin America, Africa and the Middle East began to taste the fruit of America's War profiteering machine. It seems that "Believers" were prominent among the money makers of mass death and destruction in the Third World.

Whew! For a while there I never thought I'd have a chance to comment on Chelsea Clinton's ugliness, having heard repeatedly that families were out of bounds. Well opinions wax and wane don't they?

I do agree however that Rommney gave the wrong answer. What he should have said was something along the line of not wanting his kids to witness the sort of horrors that Scott Beauchamp Thomas witnessed.

May I add that insofar as married women are serving in Iraq perhaps some intrepid questioner, speaking truth to power of course, ask John Edwards if the Missus might consider a short stay over there. For humanitarian purposes only !

Think of the coverage she would get from the NY Times, if it's possible she could get more then she already is getting. Think of the inspiration given to those 23hr a day lock ups who comprise the bulk of the Times correspondents, think of the political hay to be harvested. Ooops, that's cynical of me.

Anyway, let's get everybody's families in on this, no more "out of bounds", anything and anyone goes, a true nonpartisan endeavor, and fair game for one and all.

Whew! For a while there I never thought I'd have a chance to comment on Chelsea Clinton's ugliness, having heard repeatedly that families were out of bounds. Well opinions wax and wane don't they?

I do agree however that Rommney gave the wrong answer. What he should have said was something along the line of not wanting his kids to witness the sort of horrors that Scott Beauchamp Thomas witnessed.

May I add that insofar as married women are serving in Iraq perhaps some intrepid questioner, speaking truth to power of course, ask John Edwards if the Missus might consider a short stay over there. For humanitarian purposes only !

Think of the coverage she would get from the NY Times, if it's possible she could get more then she already is getting. Think of the inspiration given to those 23hr a day lock ups who comprise the bulk of the Times correspondents, think of the political hay to be harvested. Ooops, that's cynical of me.

Anyway, let's get everybody's families in on this, no more "out of bounds", anything and anyone goes, a true nonpartisan endeavor, and fair game for one and all.

"The two statements aren't the same. For example, if 10% of the general population are pacifists, and 20% of Mormons are pacifists, then Mormons are more likely to be pacifists"

That isn't what "Mormons being more likely to be pacifists than not" means, but sure it is very possible that Jesurgislac meant that "Mormons being more likely to be pacifists than non-Mormons.

But the thing is, pacifism is pretty rare. Most medium sized cultures don't have noticeable strains of it at all. Mormons definitely have a strain of philosophical pacifism running around. So it wouldn't be at all surprising to find that Mormons have a large set of them than the general population.

I think most people here have been interpreting it as "more than Christians". I didn't say that, though I wouldn't be shocked by it. I wouldn't say that because I suspect it is highly dependent on how you define "Christian" and I wasn't going to get into that.

he could be as well a cultist of Cthulhu (who did not make a specific statement concerning the Iraq war to my knowledge)

Actually, I think the Dreaded Old One is on the record as being in favor of the war, he just hasn't expressed a preference as to who (if anyone) wins.

Thanks -

Sebastian, I don't see why you're continuing this troll. Nobody has claimed that any of Mitt's five sons are pacifists, much less all of them. All we have is a random blogger speculating that they could possibly all be pacifists.

I think it would be interesting to discuss whether a man who raised five pacifist sons ought to be president. But that discussion has nothing to do with Mitt Romney.

Romney's sons thought the military wasn't a good career path. He explicitly says we won't have a draft so that people like his sons won't have to do things they don't want to do.

I can respect that. Nobody should have to be a soldier unless they want to. It should be a voluntary sacrifice, only the people who choose to sacrifice their lives for the nation should ever have to do that. The rest of us can tip our drinks to them and applaud when they die for our sybaritic lifestyles.

Mitt ought to send every soldier in iraq a postcard with a picture of his son riding a Winnebago to support the war effort.

And if Mitt's sons' career choices turn out to have something to do with LDS maybe Mitt will say so. In the meantime you can speculate endlessly about the possibility. Not like there's anything more important.

Hey, I was called a liar for engaging in open speculation.

And I'm well known for beating dead horses. ;)

This particular dead horse could be canned and fed to dogs (if it hasn't been turned into glue already).

But I learned a new word today - "sybaritic." Thanks, JT.

The sybarites are harmless but beware of the sycophants, especially in the press corps(e). ;-)

Yes, listen too much to sycophants and they may turn into your psychopomps.

I'm pretty sure I haven't even hinted at Mormons being 50%+ pacifist/strongly anti-war.

I expressed myself badly. I meant, by "more likely to be pacifists than not" - "more likely to be pacifists than the general range of the US population". Or even that the general run of Christians in the US. You haven't managed to demonstrate either, and you have very successfully managed to derail the discussion away from the stupidity and hypocrisy of a Republican presidential candidate, which I assume was all you ever intended to do. Well done.

Since I've never heard of anybody but you making the claim in this context, the people who keep responding to you are only arguing about you, and not about Romney or his campaign. Please stop trolling them.

Features =/= bugs. This is sadly a typical SH threadjack.

Pooh, this particular troll hasn't been all that successful in keeping attention away from Romney's idiotic response.

My thought at this point is that Romney should win the republican nomination. He would make an ideal GOP candidate provided he continues to prepare and to think on his feet at this level of competence.

And if Romney actually wins the presidency, if no other party puts up a candidate who can and does beat him, then I want to find some other nation to get citizenship in. Some better nation. Brazil maybe?

The Romneys are some serious pretty boys, that's for sure!

Late to the party but: if you're going to use your children as campaign props, no crying foul when they get kicked out from under you.

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