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May 14, 2007

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Sebastian: If there is any doubt whether or not the person was an unlawful combatant, they have a right to a competent tribunal.

No, you have that the wrong way round.

Article 4, it lists the people whom the Convention protects. In Article 5, it says that if someone has committed a belligerent act and fallen into the hands of the enemy, they are entitled to the protection of the convention until the detaining power holds a competent tribunal to prove them not so entitled.

If the detaining power has no doubt that their prisoner is a prisoner of war, they can simply hold them as a PoW. If the detaining power doubts that their prisoner is one of the people listed under Article 4, they have to hold a competent tribunal to prove their doubts either correct or incorrect. It's the principle of "innocent till proven guilty".

And the US government in 2001 publicly announced that it had no intention of holding to this convention with prisoners taken in Afghanistan.

(There is no reference to "unlawful combatants" in the Geneva Conventions, which I'm sure I've pointed out to you before, Sebastian.)

John: Thanks, but as far as being willing to listen, I’d attribute that to the forum and the regulars rather than on anything unusual on my part. The forum is well run with reasonable rules that are enforced. The regulars represent a bunch of intelligent people with diverse backgrounds who are for the most part reasonable folks. That makes for an environment where I can listen. It is not the same elsewhere, trust me.

There are some very talented and persuasive writers here, in comments as well as on the front page. Not reading them or engaging them would be my loss. But the end result is that I have to adjust my view of the world on occasion.

The idea that accused foreign violent criminals deserve a new status of "illegal combatants" in which they have no rights is very new and I think false. They have all the rights of accused violent criminals, which I believe in most ways are greater than the rights of POWs.

Indeed, if nothing else, they are supposed to be permitted to contact their embassies.

Indeed, if nothing else, they are supposed to be permitted to contact their embassies.
But as experience shows, the US do not necessarily do that even with "normal" criminals from foreign countries. I still remember a case of 2 German nationals that were condemned to death without even so much as telling them that they have a right to support from their government. The case went even up to the UN human rights court(?) because of that but that didn't keep the governor from a) refusing to reopen the trial b) refusing to stay the execution c) ignoring the UN verdict that demanded a retrial under fair conditions.
The execution took place as planned.
Iirc it was a typical Southern trial with "sleeping defense" and defendants that had no idea how the system works*.
If officials can ignore the law of the land even with no "threat to national security", why should they care, if they deal with potential terrorists?

*It must be said though that there was not much doubt that they had comitted the crime they were accused of but death was iirc not mandatory.

Sorry to come so late to this thread. I'm trying to catch up after the exile that was this trial. I'll say this about the case:

The charges were not frivolous;
This was not a politically motivated case;
The list was more than names;
The government had not properly marked the list;
LCDR Diaz was extremely happy with the outcome; and
Appeals will take a while...

More here:
http://tibbettsreport.blogspot.com/2007/05/back-from-hysteria.html

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Whatnot


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