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February 22, 2007

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Though I don't really have anything to say about it, I was intrigued by the part about female chimpanzees being the more proficient tool-makers and problem-solvers...

Wrong again hilzoy. Chimps can't make weapons. Everybody knows that. Thus, the only logical conclusion is that these advanced weapons came from...Iran*

*(ht Henley)

2001? 2010?
Cue music...

We must not allow the Iranians to achieve monolith technology.

Or land on Europa.

Eric: pwned!!!

most primate species, chimps included, are projected to go extinct within a few decades

man was given dominion over earth and all animals which reside on it. if man chooses for chimps to go extinct, it is OK with God. still, i hope we choose to let them all stay.

OCSteve, that was my first reaction, too!

H'mm. A few decades ago, the confirmation that chimps used tools at all was big news. Now they're making weapons?

And we know they can learn to read symbolic language...

How long before they're getting their hands on old copies of the Anarchist Cookbook, and surfing the Web for nuclear weapons blueprints?

When global climate change destroys our coastal cities... when the Youngest Dryas leaves our farmlands flooded or parched... when the last vestiges of humanity are squabbling over the final few hectares of habitable land...the Chimpanzees will be ready!

"Bring it on, naked apes! Ook Ook!"

"Eat simian steel, dimorphic mofos! Ook!"

...as the souls of a million experimental primates cry out for vengeance, the Final Conflict will be joined!

The Planet of the Apes: The Chimpening!

Coming soon to a decaying metropolis near you!

Chimps are thugs. Sorry to say it, but they are. Give me a bonobo any day.

Thanks -

"Occupied Gaza"

I don't like Hamas much, but that's going a little far.

[Clicks on link] Ok, so the UN employs a racist. So what?

"spear" "weapon"

The language here strikes me as question-begging. Birds do something like this with twigs unless I'm confused. Maybe a picture of what is certainly at least a tool would be helpful.

I think the difference between the apes and the birds is the "transformation". AFAIK the birds use the twigs/thorns/etc. as they find them more or less while the chimps "manufacture" the tools/weapons from raw materials.
This doesn't say that birds are not able to do some craftsmenship themselves (cf. e.g. weaver birds).

Crows have been known to manufacture tools for use in foraging,
and indeed some say that they're better at it than chimps. But as far as we know, crows haven't yet got the idea of making tools that kill things. There'll be hell to pay when they do.

won't someone think of the poor bush babies ?

won't someone think of the poor bush babies ? [cleek]

Right, they are so cute! (unfortunately unsuitable as pets. They urinate on their hands and feet in order to mark their territory wherever they walk, not a nice thing in your common flat).
Given that chimps otherwise tear their victims to pieces alive, spearing might actually be the more "humane" death.
Couldn't those chimps switch to crocodiles, that would do a favour to many ;-)

We'd better start looking out for gorilla warfare.

most primate species, chimps included, are projected to go extinct within a few decades

Humans included? Some days I'd rather see the chimps survive.

And -- is this really true of most primate species? i.e., are most species of monkeys, lemurs, and apes, all taken together, going extinct? I'd heard this about great apes and lemurs, but ...

anyhow, very sad.

Also, I don't know much about bush babies, but I just got this mental image of a chimp poking the Bush twins with a sharp stick.

Which at least counters the sadness a little.

damon: true enough: we survive.

(Kicks self.)

Ok, so the UN employs a racist. So what?

That's a pretty serious charge against John Dugard. What in the report are you basing it on?

"most primate species, chimps included, are projected to go extinct within a few decades"

"Most" could exclude us of course. But anyway - chimps (and many other of our relatives) will surely survive in zoos, if not preserves, won't they? Does "extinct" mean "extinct in the wild"?

I wonder if chimps will start carrying spears on their territorial patrols. Considering how monstrously strong they are, I'm not sure whether the increase in armament would be especially useful or not.

"That's a pretty serious charge against John Dugard. What in the report are you basing it on?"

I assume Rilkefan is referring to the quote of Dugard, in the Grauniad article, of this: "one racial group (Jews)."

It's difficult to defend the claim that Jews, or even just "Jews in Israel" are "one racial group" if one isn't making a racist claim that, you know, Jews are "one racial group." Given how obviously absurd such a claim is, absent racist belief that Jews are a "race."

(That doesn't affect the validity or invalidity of the individual's other observations or claims, of course.)

Thanks, Gary.

Note the brackets around "Jews" and "Palestinians". This was added by the Guardian. I don't think you can take this as a claim of Jews are "one racial group." Regardless, I'm not sure how this justifies labelling an individual a racist - especially since there was, probably, a lot more said in the interview than made it into the article.

Actually, I stand corrected: the sentence is in the Report on pg. 20, so those are his words.

The title of this post reminded me of the title of this poem.

Thanks for that, rilkefan. 'Rattapallax' is a word entirely new to me. What does it mean?

As John Prine says,

"Onomatopoeia,
I don't wanna see ya
Speakin' in a foreign tongue"

Onomatopoeia? A made-up-for-poetry word describing thunder?

That was a reply to Nell, as JakeB hadn't posted yet when I wrote it.

Nell - sure thing. Stevens does this stuff with sounds sometimes, I don't much worry what if anything he's talking about (usually some philosophical something or other).

That's not considered an important Wallace Stevens poem, by the way. If you want to read something awesome, I'd suggest checking out Sea Surface Full of Clouds or The Idea Of Order At Key West.

My favorite remains "The M*****F****** Emperor of M*****F****** Ice Cream" (Samuel L. Jacksonized to show just how much I love it).

Thanks, all. As onomatopoeia, 'rattapallax' sounds much to my ear more like a hard rain on a tin roof than like thunder. And also as if there were a classical allusion buried in there...

On googling, I see that there's a poetry journal and a poetry performance group with the name.

I love Bantams in Pine Woods.

"As onomatopoeia, 'rattapallax' sounds much to my ear more like a hard rain on a tin roof than like thunder."

Since you put it that way, I'd entirely, muchly, agree.

"As onomatopoeia, 'rattapallax' sounds much to my ear more like a hard rain on a tin roof"

That's "catapallax".

{LOL!}

No, that's the pitter-patter of a soft rain...


Some onomotapoeia's very personal; others seem to have come close to becoming accepted words, or at least conventions. Comics have certainly done their bit.

I was reminded of that by a recent sketch by Alison Bechdel (author of Dykes to Watch Out For), in which a huge amount of snow comes off the roof at once. Can anyone name that sound?

Oh, man. I somehow missed CaseyL's post earlier, and am now wiping away tears of laughter.... The Chimpening...{wheeeeze, sniff}

This is a very important subject in fundamental prosody - not very helpful comment here but see the preceding comment and the whole thread.

Snow falls off roofs?

Wow. That Unfogged is one dangerously appealing time sink...

Snow falls off roofs?

Oh, how I miss the Bay Area....

Yes, it does, and especially this year in New England. With this sound:

FOOMP!

While recognizing its complete aptness for the snow-off-roof occasion, now that I'm typing it what leaps to mind is its use by R.Crumb, for something less worksafe...

For a change of pace around here, the weather report says for later tonight: "a bit of snow"; after that, changing things up, the report for tomorrow says "morning snow."

I can't say how much I'm looking forward to more snow. It will be such a novelty.

Our neighbor sent us a note complaining that the willow in our yard is dropping its seeds on her skylight - sorta snowlike.

I am nuts about Steven's Comedian as the Letter C tho I have been told the experts aren't so impressed. Existentialism with a real big smile. Harmonium is probably my favourite poetry, along with early Rilke.

"I assume Rilkefan is referring to the quote of Dugard, in the Grauniad article, of this: "one racial group (Jews)."

It's difficult to defend the claim that Jews, or even just "Jews in Israel" are "one racial group" if one isn't making a racist claim that, you know, Jews are "one racial group." Given how obviously absurd such a claim is, absent racist belief that Jews are a "race."


Dugard also refers to Palestinians as a "racial group". Is that a racist assumption that Palestinians constitute a "race" or does that matter? In context, Dugard is comparing Israel's policies in the occupation to those of apartheid South Africa, because both governments had policies where one group of people was treated much better than another. Dugard is a South African anti-apartheid activist, intimately familiar with how a government divides people into different categories. In South Africa this was done according to "race"--in the West Bank it is according to whether one is a Palestinian or an Israeli settler. The country which imposes an apartheid-like system and awards or takes away basic human rights according to whether someone is a member of a particular group is behaving in a racist fashion. Dugard criticizes the policy and uses the term which he'd naturally think of given where he'd seen this type of policy before. What a bad man he must be--shame on the UN for hiring him.

While we're on the subject of both poetry and racism: The other night, following links to Auden poems on the occasion of his centennial, I stayed at the poetry site and poked around.

This one stayed with me, and not because of its poetic power, but because of its hit-you-over-the-head-with-a-2x4 racism. Given that it's not a careless utterance, but a presumably well-crafted poem, I had to wonder if the poet didn't intend to confront her Israeli readers with their own racism (as opposed to displaying hers).


"its hit-you-over-the-head-with-a-2x4 racism"

Umm, what? You could as reasonably claim it's misandrist, or an attempt to romanticize violence.

"uses the term which he'd naturally think of given" that he's apparently a racist and a propagandist. It's a shame that this sort of stuff sells, and it's a shame that the UN has so long been willing to embarrass itself with overeager over-the-top condemnations of Israel which strengthen the hand of those on the far right. It hurts the cause of justice for the Palestinians.

I'm not sure how your link supports your assertion Dugard is a racist.

it's a shame that the UN has so long been willing to embarrass itself with overeager over-the-top condemnations of Israel which strengthen the hand of those on the far right.

Rather than engage in substanceless condemnations, could you point to anything in the actual report, rilkefan, that is factually incorrect? Because that would make this worthwhile. And is it your position that the UN should not concern itself with conditions in the Gaza Strip?

rilkefan, does anything strike you about the stanza that begins "Together with Rebecca Fink..."?

Nell,

Are you referring to the use of names up until the last line of the stanza, at which point it refers simply to 'two Chinese'?

The names-vs.-namelessness is almost standard operating procedure in, say, U.S. press coverage of attacks that kill or wound Israeli citizens (Jewish or Arab) vs. those that kill or wound Palestinians. But this isn't a rushed or cramped-for-space bit of reporting. This is a poem, in which each word is surely chosen for effect.

Good catch. It took me a few times through the poem to see it, and I might never have if you hadn't pointed me in the right direction. It makes a very good point.

Dugard refers to the two groups Jews and Palestinians as races.
If a misuse of terminology makes one a racist, then the force of that particular condemnation drops down several notches. Now if he starts attributing certain inherent biological proclivities to either group, we've got ourselves a racist in the usual sense, the sense that elicits justifiable condemnation, but right now all you've shown is that he uses an imprecise word imprecisely. I don't think a person who opposes discriminatory treatment is the same as a person who supports discriminatory treatment.

And again, it is the Israeli government which is treating the two groups differently, in a way that reminds Dugard and Desmond Tutu and Jimmy Carter and the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem and various other Israelis of apartheid.

That's a little subtle for me, Nell, though I see what you mean. I'd give the poet a benefit of a doubt without further evidence, but yeah, she is careful to spell out the names of some people and not others.

My own suspicion (which fits in with yours) would be to wonder if the poet is one of those one finds on both sides who focuses entirely on the sufferings of her own people and totally ignores the sufferings of the other side. THEY are savage, irrational, crazy--WE are their victims. I heard this once from the opposite side of the I/P conflict, at a talk given at a local Amnesty International meeting many years ago. The Palestinian woman gave a long impassioned talk about Israel's crimes and then an agitated audience member asked about Palestinian terrorism. "Oh, nobody wants to listen to those old stories", was her reply. But again, I would have to know more about the poet to determine if she was one those type of people--the ethnic narcissists.

Again, I have to stress the difference between a poet and almost any other speaker or writer.

So much care and thought goes into each line of a poem that Woman Martyr leaves just two choices in interpreting the 'two Chinese' line: Agi Mishol is drawing attention to an all-too-common way of viewing the victims of Palestinian attacks, or she is consciously choosing to participate in this way of viewing them.

It's almost impossible to accept for a poet the other possible interpretation of unconscious ethnic narcissism/racism, which might be assigned to almost any other kind of writer.

I for one welcome our new chimpanzee overlords . . .

One obvious reason to refer to the Chinese victims in that way would be that they weren't intended to be killed - that they didn't participate in the I/P struggle.

I can think of several other possible obvious reasons that hinge on Hebrew and the original prosody.

I can think of still other possible obvious reasons that would depend on the precise facts of the case.


Good poetry is by its nature resistant to interpretation, especially political; I think one would have to do a lot of work before being able to start thinking about "5x5", to say nothing of "2x4".

"Rather than engage in substanceless condemnations"

Your dislike of the substance doesn't make it go away.


"And is it your position that the UN should not concern itself with conditions in the Gaza Strip?"

The UN should concern itself with the full, complicated truth; without resorting to demagogy; with an awareness of how often it has conspicuously failed to be fair; and everywhere in reasonable measure.

I'm (drunkenly) curious as to the extent to which Jews constitute a "racial group" and white folks, aka McHonkies, don't. Or conversely, vice versa.

In the strict ethnic sense the Palestinians could be considered a "racial group" (they are not Arabs like many think). If Jews were an ethnic group in the past they have ceased to be a long time ago (one could argue already in late antiquity).
But biology has nothing to do with the P/I conflict, it's a purely cultural/social/political thing in my opinion.

Your dislike of the substance doesn't make it go away.

On the basis of the formulation of one sentence, you've attempted to invalidate a man, his report and by extension his life's work. Personally I don't find it sufficient evidence to level the heavy duty charge of racism.

The UN should concern itself with the full, complicated truth; without resorting to demagogy

As per Amnesty International and the use of "gulag", you would have been much better off with using hyperbole as the basis of your criticism. Hair-trigger accusations of racism against those investigating the state of human rights in Gaza do not serve either the cause of the Palestinians or Israel.

I'll ask again: are there any facts in the report wrong?

If Jews were an ethnic group in the past they have ceased to be a long time ago

I think you're mixing up "ethnicity" with "race" - ethnicity is "a population of humans whose members identify with each other....also usually united by certain common cultural, behavioural, linguistic and ritualistic or religious traits". There's nothing biological about it.

P.S. Perhaps rilkefan could recommend a report on the state of human rights in Gaza that is "less racist". Surely there is one?

P.P.S. This is relevant: Article 1 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination of 1966 defines “racial discrimination” as meaning “any distinction, exclusion, restriction preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin"

rilkefan: they weren't intended to be killed - that they didn't participate in the I/P struggle

That's just another version of ethnic narcissism. Surely an inescapable feature of terrorism of the form of suicide bombing in shops, or planes flying into office buildings, is that people will be killed who aren't "participating in the struggle" (in the view of those who do see such a struggle taking place). I'd expect terrorists to be unconcerned with that, but not anti-terrorists.

reasons that hinge on Hebrew and the original prosody

This had occurred to me, and I'm now intrigued enough to pursue the question of how the original poem reads.

Many poems are resistant to political interpretation; this poem is inherently political. Translation may inadvertenly have made it more so.

Thanks for responding. Let's leave it here. I'm much more interested in an answer to spartikus' question.

I was under the impression that "ethnic" had a biological component built in, i.e. that an ethnic group would also have to share a minimum of "blood relationship" (though not necessarily as narrow as a "tribal" one).
At least the English wikipedia seems to contradict that.
What I meant was that Jewry started tribal but lost that exclusiveness in the first centuries AD (first by starting proselytizing, then as a result of the diaspora). With the Palestinians it went the opposite way as far as we can tell, starting with an unclear mixture of peoples and slowly turning into the more homgeneous entity od today.
Again, the I/P conflict is not a "racial" one despite attempts from the extreme end(s) of the political spectrum to depict/make it one. No dissent here.

OK, make homgeneous entity od
homogeneous entity of

" Surely an inescapable feature of terrorism of the form of suicide bombing in shops, or planes flying into office buildings, is that people will be killed who aren't "participating in the struggle" (in the view of those who do see such a struggle taking place). I'd expect terrorists to be unconcerned with that, but not anti-terrorists."

Depends on the terrorist, I think. I haven't exactly made a great study of this, but I have read enough to know that some terrorists do make moral distinctions of a sort on which targets are morally defensible and probably some would claim to regret the "collateral damage" if the wrong sort of civilian gets killed. Some Palestinians, for instance, have rationalized to themselves that settlers on the West Bank are legitimate targets, but Israeli civilians inside the 67 boundaries are not. (I think Marwan Barghouti (sp?) is supposed to have argued this way.) I just read a book about Islamists by an Arab-American named Gerges (forgot the first name, but I think the book was "Journey Among the Jihadists" or something like that) and one of the jihadist informants said that many Islamists who supported terror attacks in some circumstances were very much opposed to 9/11 as immoral. Al Qaeda is extreme even among extremists.

All these people are wrong, but some are wronger than others. I also think the rationalizations are similar to the rationalizations that many Westerners engage in when defending our own actions, but that's a different rant.

Nell - to be fair on the poem, if I had encountered it in my reading group, I would have asked the author or translator if she was clear on the reason(s) to omit the Chinese victims' names, and if that (or other acceptably obvious possibilities) was clear to the other readers - perhaps knowing extra-poem information such as that the named victims died immediately but the Chinese victims died later is essential, or relying on the reader to recognize that the named victims were female and guess that the unnamed were male (I think "Nissim"'s a male name, but this is all hypothetical), etc., and that gets into a trackless wilderness of questions of craft.

Re a reading list on Gaza, that's Gary's bailiwick. Peace Now would be a good place to look, of course, esp. if their search tool worked with firefox.

I'm probably missing something, but I don't see any substantive difference b/w Dugard and Peace Now regarding the facts on the ground or the remedy.

I also note extensive references on Peace Now to apartheid.

Finally, the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics uses the following when conducting it's censuses:

a. The Jewish population
b. The Moslem population
c. The Arab Christian population
d. The Non-Arab Christian population
e. The Druze population
f. The population not classified by religion

Remarkably enough, the web contains a specific answer to the question of why "two Chinese", from the poet herself.

It's in an interview with Agi Mishol by the woman who translated Woman Martyr, Lisa Katz, conducted shortly after the poem appeared. Mishol wrote the poem not long after the bombing, which took place in April 2002 in the Ben Yehuda Market in Jerusalem.

Lisa Katz: Let's talk about the process of writing. I once heard you speaking about the way you begin to write-- when a line comes to you. Is this what happened with “Woman Martyr”?

Agi Mishol: With that poem it was the suicide bomber's last name [Takatka]. I heard her name, and that's how it works – each time one catches things from a different angle. Her name sounded like the ticking of a bomb- taka-taka like tick-tock – and that was the first thing I noticed. Afterwards my imagination was caught by her walking in the market, a twenty year old in a maternity dress. I thought to myself that she was probably a virgin and had never been pregnant.

I tried to get inside her mind as she was walking and I remembered when I was pregnant and I always thought people were noticing my stomach. I was so proud of being pregnant, of “showing,” and thought that everyone was looking at me (although they probably weren't). I thought about how she felt about her strange “pregnancy,” walking with a bomb, looking at the people and picking a place to explode, what went through her mind, I couldn't stop thinking about it. There have been many terror attacks and I can't think about them all, I don't allow myself; it's as though I haven't got any more room for them inside me. And then she entered that space, along with the list of names of people who died in her attack, and the irony – someone from Afghanistan, and someone from Iran. The most ironic was the two Chinese, like the Israeli children's song: “There were two Chinese, and along came the police...”

So it's an allusion, one that's completely opaque to readers not raised in Israel.

The whole interview is well worth reading. A highlight for me is Mishol's thoughts on why Hebrew is an especially powerful language for poetry.

On the political character of the poem (along with much of Mishol's writing in that period, and perhaps since):

I had never written about political or social topics before, or if I did it was ironic or well-hidden, and still it's there (in the poetry) because I do live here but it was never the main thing. Today I almost can't do anything else but write about “it.” This surprises me because this is new for me, to be inside something and also to write as if one were outside. All my attention is on “it,” the “situation.”

More here, in Ha'aretz in 2003:

Refers to a well-known Hebrew children's song: "Two-hoo Chinese with a great big violin / Sat chatting by the roadside, making a huge din / A cop came along and kicked them out and this is it / Two-hoo Chinese with a great big violin." Subsequent stanzas scramble the syllables of the first until it turns into tongue-twisting nonsense.

The poem was first published in Ha'aretz. Mishol's interview a year later provides another take on the political nature or not of the poem:

Do you write political poetry?

"No, and I don't like political poetry. I like poetry about eternity, not about time. But because life is suffused with politics, it is absorbed. For example, when I published `Shaheeda' in [the Hebrew version of] Haaretz, [literary editor] Benny Tziffer told me that readers called up to cancel their subscriptions. But I did not write that poem either for the sake of the Jews or the Arabs, but for the sake of human consciousness. First of all, her name, `Andalib Takatka,' which sounds like the ticking of a bomb - `taka-taka' like `tick-tock' - and my imagination was caught by the fact that she dressed up like a pregnant woman. That whole story interested me enormously, but there were people that related to it as if it were something political."

Nell, great stuff. Hat's off. ("Hats"?)

Hat's... unless you're two-headed! I think the expression's short for "my hat's off to you."

I'm glad I had the strong (and incorrect) reaction I did to the poem in translation, because it sent me to read more of and about Agi Mishol.

"I'm glad I had the strong (and incorrect) reaction I did to the poem in translation"

I find myself humbled in the interpretation of poetry all the time, which informed my caution above. Given your reaction, I wonder if dropping the reference would have been wiser (esp. as it adds about 0% to someone without the cultural referent), or adding "like in the nursery rhyme".

A fascinating and moving book about translation (wikipedia).

I love Hofstadter's book too, and don't understand why it got some of the harsh reviews it did. Checking the Amazon page, I see he has a new one coming out entitled "I am a Strange Loop", which I am looking forward to.

That song seems not to be specifically Hebrew because I know it from Germany too. Here it is 3 Chinese with a contrabass instead of 2 with a violin but the principle to change the vowels in every stanza is the same.
But even with knowing the song I would not have associated the line in the poem with it.

Hartmut, that's even more intriguing. For a year and a half of my childhood my family lived in Germany, in Bavaria, and I learned some childrens' songs, but not that one. The vowel-changing part sounds like a lot of fun. Would it be possible for you to reproduce the song here?

I'm quite familiar with the song. Ordinary lyrics are

Drei Chinesen mit 'nem Contrabass
Sassen auf der Strasse und erzählten sich was
Dann kommt der Polizei
'Ja was ist denn das?'
Drei Chinesen mit 'nem Contrabass!

Now repeat replacing all vowels with 'ue' and then 'i,' and then 'ae,' usw.

Raffi did the same thing, in a much limited form, with http://www.songsforteaching.com/ApplesBananas.html>Apples and Bananas.

For those that understand German, the http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drei_Chinesen_mit_dem_Kontrabass> German entry has also something to say about the Hebrew version and why it is a violin there (and only 2 chinese men).

We had a comedian who adapted it. Dutch is quite close to German, so we didn't need to change numbers or instruments ;)

German wiki doesn't say anything about a Yiddish version - would that be geographically adapted (2 chinese) or linguistically consistent?

I said Hebrew not Yiddish (it's in the third paragraph of the Akkulturation section of the German link)


Über Auswanderer und Flüchtlinge aus dem deutschen Sprachraum hat das Lied auch seinen Weg nach Israel gefunden, die hebräische Fassung des Textes (שניים סינים עם כינור גדול, Shenayim sinim im kinor gadol) lehnt sich an die deutsche Vorlage an. Dass in Israel nur zwei (dies die Bedeutung von shenayim) Chinesen im Spiel sind, liegt offensichtlich daran, dass das hebräische Zahlwort für drei, שלושה (shelosha), sich in diesem Fall nur schwer an das Metrum anpassen lässt. Aus ähnlichen Gründen finden wir die archaisierende Wortbildung kinor gadol („große Geige“), die an das im süddeutschen Sprachraum übliche Bassgeige oder das ungarische nagybőgő erinnert. Im modernen Hebräisch ist jedoch, wie in den meisten Sprachen, קונטרבס (kontrabas) die gängige Bezeichnung für das Instrument. Da die Spielidee im Hebräischen ebenso gut funktioniert wie im Deutschen, lernen auch israelische Kinder die Vokale ihrer Muttersprache anhand des Liedes zu unterscheiden. Seit den 70er Jahren wurden die Shenayim sinim von verschiedenen Künstlern auf Schallplatte beziehungsweise CD eingespielt.

"Dass in Israel nur zwei (dies die Bedeutung von shenayim) Chinesen im Spiel sind, liegt offensichtlich daran, dass das hebräische Zahlwort für drei, שלושה (shelosha), sich in diesem Fall nur schwer an das Metrum anpassen lässt."

That's why I said that we didn't have to change the numbers in Dutch ;)
I was just curious wether the Yiddish version would be more like the German version (because there is a lot of German in Yiddish), or more like the Hebrew version (because that would be more familiar for Jewish people).

But it's just the first fleeting question that pops into my mind reading the piece, nothing serious.

About Agi Mishol's poem, (I am the translator/interviewer) there is also an explanation (by me) dealing with Bethlehem bread/meat/war and the two Chinese (actually they were foreign workers as well as figures in a children's song) online at Poetry International Web

“In favor of difference: Views on translation.” Poetry International Web 5 September 2003. http://international.poetryinternationalweb.org/piw_cms/cms/cms_module/index.php?obj_id=371

Lisa Katz's link, which makes points about poetry and translation in general and this poem in particular (the title is Arabic, "In the poem under discussion, readers of the translation will not hear that the metal of the bomb shards (mah-tech-et) is a near-rhyme with the bomb-woman ticking (meh-tak-tek-et) in Hebrew"). Thanks for dropping by.

you should get more information on chimpanzees! becuase me and my friend are doing a project on chimpanzees and there isnt enough information... please egt information because i need it!
bye! xxoo

you should get more information on chimpanzees! becuase me and my friend are doing a project on chimpanzees and there isnt enough information... please egt information because i need it!
bye! xxoo

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