Knocking About in Madrid: Open Thread

Note: I did not see either the bombing or the big fire that occurred while I was in Spain's capital. A few lovely folks emailed to see if I was OK. Thanks for your emails. I was miles and miles from both events when they occurred.
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Strolling through a hilly part of Madrid with four friends after a long, well-wined lunch, we entered a small Plaza with five crooked streets radiating out sharply upward or downward. It was the sort of Medieval intersection you associate with commerce, history and intrigue. It lived up to that association, as upon entering the Plaza we were stopped in our tracks by a cinematic rush of excitement.

About two dozen young African immigrants, each carrying a bundle of knockoff goods wrapped in a blanket came running up the hill. "Here come the East Africans," said our friend Dr. I (an art historian whose father is Ethiopian and who's spent many years in Kenya, Somalia, Tanzania, etc.).

At first, in my inebriated haze, I took their energetic jaunt up the hill as a sign of good-natured ambition. They were "rushing off to sell their wares" was my first thought. That was quickly replaced by reality as the police emerged from every avenue. They had ambushed the young immigrants. Cars with lights flashing roared in from three of the streets, officers with dogs emerged from other alley ways, and within seconds a good number of the Africans were trapped. Others managed to escape.

Dr. I was initially ready to confront the cops. To tell them to leave the young men alone, but she realized she was in no position to assess the situation or render judgment so quickly. Still, she began telling us the story of these immigrants who scrape together everything their village can spare to "send them to university" in Spain, which is essentially a ruse. Upon entering the country they disappear into the underground, selling goods on the black market and avoiding the police. If caught, however, the police in their home country will beat them brutally after the Spaniards send them back. So these men were not running solely to avoid an unpleasant arrest or ticket.

We hung around the Plaza for a few minutes as the Police herded the men they caught up the hill. A few moments later a visibly shaken young man with his goods in tow entered the Plaza and was obviously trying to decide which way to go. Dr. I greeted him with an African lingua-franca salutation and asked where he was from. Somalia was his answer. She's very warm and approachable, Dr. I, so immediately the African seemed to trust her. She explained which way the cops had gone and we all jumped in to suggest he go the other way. He took our advice and headed away from the dragnet.

I don't have strong feelings about knock-off goods other than to be stunned by how quickly they end up on corners in the world's larger cities. The production processes their creators must have in place should be studied at our finer business schools. I do recognize that they represent theft and suppose if I were one of the manufacturers who lost money due to them I'd be more passionately opposed to the practice. In general, I don't think the sort of consumer who can afford to spend more than $1000 for a purse would decide not to buy an original because a knock-off was close enough, though, so I'm not sure what their real impact is. I do believe that when it comes to copyright issues, you must be seen to be actively fighting infringement to keep your copyright sometimes (Von, feel free to jump in here), and I suppose pressuring the cops to crack down on the knock-off makers and sellers falls into that. Clearly, it would be better if the young immigrants drafted into selling them were selling legally manufactured goods instead (although, here, too, I'm not sure that's why they police round them up...I believe it's more a matter of not having a vendor's permit, which brings into question more the issue of black markets versus open markets and their impact/morality).

Have I made it clear this issue is not something I'm well informed about?

So why share this anecdote? Because I'm way too partied out and jet-lagged to research the more important issues on my mind at the moment and I wanted to just say "Hi" to everyone. Feel more than free to discuss other things in this thread.

Comments

[liberal japonicus]

Since this is an open thread and Copts has been brought up, where is Charles and has he seen this?

In recent days, it has also brought them closer to possibly solving the slayings, which they now believe are likely about money and not the sectarian violence feared by many Coptic Orthodox community members.

"We're getting somewhere that hopefully is going to give us a clear indication as to what the motive is," said Hudson County Prosecutor Edward DeFazio. "And once you have motive, that helps lead you to the people involved."

DeFazio still won't discuss the intricate details of the case or explain why investigators are leaning toward a financial motive for the killings. But he did provide a glimpse into the probe, which has included assistance from an FBI profiler.

"The FBI does not think that, based on the information gleaned from the scene, it's based on religious extremism," the prosecutor said, without elaborating.

The article also notes that the family was killed by knifes found in the house, indicating a lack of planning, but also quotes a former employee who feels is was done by a middleman of a terrorist sleeper cell, which the reporter (who has written the other articles that Chas has cited) notes "has no supportive evidence".

[sidereal]

Retraction forthcoming, no doubt!

"Is it somehow your position that Goldberg would stop advocating war if it meant he'd have to fight?"

I honestly believe the answer is yes, but I can provide no evidence. . only the intensive study of human nature that has allowed me to retire and make millions playing poker.

[Slartibartfast]

This (and I suggest you yourself verify this with the aforementioned dictionary) is a contradiction.

When in doubt, you ought to probably ask. Allow me to quote myself, changing only HTML:

I don't think anyone at all was under the impression that being a policeman was really all that much like being a soldier, felix.

Still, if you're expecting what's being referred to by analogy to be the same in every way as what it's being compared with, you and I aren't even speaking the same language.

[Slartibartfast]

Cole did not make a universal moral claim about all policies. He made a specific one about war.

Oh, so this is a special case, then? Who made the rules? Where can I find these rules?

[Jesurgislac]

Since it's an open thread, how many other people here would know what therianthropic means without looking it up?

[Edward]

therianthropic

Liking pronouns while being dyslexic?

[Slartibartfast]

Because if the recruiters are not meeting their quotas (and they are currently not)

Hmmmm...I'd want a cite on that. Everything I've seen indicates that's an incorrect statement.

That took much longer to write than it did to find, too.

[Bernard Yomtov]

Ok, but we aren't talking just talking about that. We are talking about Goldberg supporting the Iraq war. That war, and any war requiring less than double our current forces doesn't require us to worry about the draftee problem. We have police-like volunteers.

Well, I personally have no interest in whether Goldberg enlists or not, Frankly, I suspect things will go better in Iraq without him.

My interest is in the question of whether we are obligated to enlist to fight any war we support, which I understand to be Cole's position. After chewing this over I think Cole's argument is essentially an argument for universal military service. The short version is that military service is unique, that it is a specific obligation for which nothing else can be substituted.

On the other jand, if we accept that it is legitimate to have a volunteer army, then we are saying that military service is a profession like any other, and we simply pay those who fight on our behalf, as we pay others who work for the government. After all, if Goldberg supported an expansion of the space program no one would argue that he was morally obligated to study rocket science (chuckle) and join NASA.

Another way to arrive at this conclusion is to ask what is so special about military service. Clearly, it is the high risk of death (or serious injury). But that risk is present even if one joins in peacetime. Wars may break out at any time, so even the peacetime enlistee bears substantial risk. This may be especially true of defensive wars, which have the characteristics that they are started by someone else and that they generally are overwhelmingly supported. So if you would support defensive war you are obligated to bear the risks associated with it, and the only way to do that is to enlist, even in peacetime. (Also, as a practical matter, you must allow time for training, etc. It may do no good to wait for the outbreak).

So I think that the question comes down to one of universal military service vs. volunteer army. So long as the US policy is the latter it is hard for me to agree with Cole.

[fdl]

I wrote: "i guess what bugs me is that JG is advocating that our troops take a risk (a) that he is unwilling to undertake himself AND (b) that is a dramatic change from the circumstances under which our troops volunteered."

I stand by that position -- there was a photo early in the war of a truck, clearly driven by a Guardsman, which said something to the effect of "Two weekends a month MY ASS". Yes, a lot of those Guardsman voted for Bush, so you could argue that their vote expressed a willingness for a change in military policy. But that's pretty thin gruel.

The Iraq war, as so eloquently argued here and elsewhere, was PREVENTIVE; we could not wait, per the admin., for the threat to become imminent.

That is a major change in policy, and so I think there's something really pretty awful about smart youngish men arguing in support of that change in policy -- which is killing americans every day -- when they're not willing to bear that risk.

the police analogy is atrocious, really.

a. the purpose of the police is to keep the peace, not make war. VERY few police officers die in the line of duty.
b. police officers can quit at any time.
c. the changes in which the LAPD, for example, are deployed are NOT likely to result in massive increased casualties among the LAPD.

Death is different; police work is not soldiering, in 2005.

Francis

[votermom]

Another way to arrive at this conclusion is to ask what is so special about military service.

That they're not allowed to quite before their contract time is up. (Without going to jail). That their contract time may be extended without their consent.
What other profession is like that?

[felixrayman]

Still, if you're expecting what's being referred to by analogy to be the same in every way as what it's being compared with, you and I aren't even speaking the same language.

The strength of an analogy depends solely on the criteria of whether the things being compared are alike. To make an argument by analogy while also arguing the things being compared are not that much alike is contradictory, whatever you think your bold tag implies notwithstanding.

Hmmmm...I'd want a cite on that. Everything I've seen indicates that's an incorrect statement.

CNN claims, for example, that the National Guard met only 56% of its recruiting goals last month and that the Marines missed their goals last month for the first time in a decade.

That also took longer to write than find, perhaps you are using a different version of Google than I am.

Oh, so this is a special case, then? Who made the rules? Where can I find these rules?

It's a statement of moral belief. You'll have to ask Mr. Cole what the basis of his are.

[Slartibartfast]

CNN claims, for example, that the National Guard met only 56% of its recruiting goals last month and that the Marines missed their goals last month for the first time in a decade.

Now, there's no denying that protracted time in theater is having an effect. But really, one month of missed quotas, that's what you're looking at? Was Goldberg's POV perfectly valid for the other eighteen months or so?

It's a statement of moral belief.

Oh, you're talking about beliefs. I sensed somehow that this was not a logical argument.

[felixrayman]

Was Goldberg's POV perfectly valid for the other eighteen months or so?

No, as was explained earlier in the thread (February 15, 2005 07:19 AM).

Oh, you're talking about beliefs. I sensed somehow that this was not a logical argument

Yes, we are talking, among other things, about beliefs, as was explained earlier in the thread (February 14, 2005 10:49 PM). And the idea that assumptions (for example, moral beliefs), play no part in a logical argument was also dismissed earlier in the thread (February 15, 2005 01:46 AM).

Got anything new?

[dutchmarbel]

I thought it made a difference for the people who are with the reserve.

I would expect those to take up arms to defend their country, and most of those in favor of the war argued that de war in Iraq was in defense of the country.

With hindsight for those people and with common sense for most others it was not self-defense. That changes the premisse I think.

FWIW: our soldiers were in majority against the war in Iraq, but they still went since it was their job. But they are not forced, and they can always quit AFAIK.

[Bernard Yomtov]

votermom,

Another way to arrive at this conclusion is to ask what is so special about military service.

That they're not allowed to quite before their contract time is up. (Without going to jail). That their contract time may be extended without their consent.
What other profession is like that?

Good points. My argument was in the context of a purely volunteer military.
You are saying that we do not have a purely volunteer military, that there are elements of conscription. That's worth thinking about.

[Jesurgislac]

Slarti: But really, one month of missed quotas, that's what you're looking at?

I thought it was generally accepted that there was a manpower problem in the US army, thanks to the war in Iraq, and that it's only going to get worse - unless Bush instigates a draft.

[LizardBreath]

I know what therianthrope means, but never realized until now that I can't figure out the etymology. The second root in the word is obvious, but what's the first?

[Slartibartfast]

No, as was explained earlier in the thread (February 15, 2005 07:19 AM).

As far as I can tell, there is no 7:19AM post. Timestamps in preview seem to be screwed up, felix.

And the idea that assumptions (for example, moral beliefs), play no part in a logical argument was also dismissed earlier in the thread (February 15, 2005 01:46 AM)

Again, you're going to have correct this because of the timestamp problem.

There was, I believe, some discussion about beliefs/morals, not that it ever amounted to anything definitive. Not dismissing Anarch's and hilzoy's contributions, just saying they do rather less to support your point than you might like.

Got anything new?

No, but I don't actually need anything new.

[dutchmarbel]

The word combines the Greek therion, wild animal, with anthropos, human being.

from world wide words

( I had to look it up ;-) )

[Jesurgislac]

Glad you asked, LizardBreath! "Therion" is Greek for "wild animal".

[Sebastian Holsclaw]

"I thought it was generally accepted that there was a manpower problem in the US army, thanks to the war in Iraq, and that it's only going to get worse - unless Bush instigates a draft."

Umm, no not at all. There has been minor difficulties with National Guard retention--unshocking since the chances of being deployed as a Guard member have gone from near-zero to near-certainty. There has been no trouble meeting main-force quotas, and recruiters estimate that they could easily double the size of the national forces if authorized. The key manpower shortage is because Congress and the Administration have not authorized money for a larger force. Which is a completely legitimate criticism of both, and has nothing to do with the draft.

[Slartibartfast]

And here I was thinking theremin.

[Slartibartfast]

I'd heard that part of the Guard problem was self-inflicted; that since Rumsfeld's retention policy was keeping people from rolling out of federal service and into the Guard, that enrollment was suffering. Not saying this makes anything any better, just that it's a cascade effect.

[kenB]

FYI, Greek "ther-" is cognate with Latin "fer-" (whence English "feral", "fierce"). Also Slavic zver-, for the Russian speakers among us.

[LizardBreath]

Ah -- so I guess it's a little broader than just werewolves.

While we're on the subject of werewolf trivia, did anyone else know that the "werewolves can't stand silver/can only be killed by a silver bullet" thing is not in fact folklore, but rather dates back only to a 1941 Lon Chaney movie? I found this out after musing idly in a medieval lit class, "Funny how there aren't any stories from before handguns about killing a werewolf with a silver knife."

[dutchmarbel]

Werewolves are serial, the term seems to be originally intended more for Anubis or the Minotaur than werewolves.

As a Buffy fan I suspect all "common knowledge" about the mystical beings of evil ;-)

[fdl]

dutchmarbel: werewolves are serial killers? Like Ted Bundy? or Capn Crunch?

Francis

[dutchmarbel]

Francis: they are serial as in first human, than animal. Originally the term therianthrope seems to be used for beings that were part god or man, and part animal at the same time ;-)

Wouldn't that be a chimera though?? I now start to wonder?

[LizardBreath]

A chimera is an animal composed of parts of two or more other animals, of which none need be human; a therianthrope would, from the etymology of the word, need to be at least part human. (I.e., any therianthope would be a chimera, but a griffin -- part lion, part eagle -- would be a chimera but not a therianthrope.)

[dutchmarbel]

I, tnxs LizardBreath, you are right. Centaur = theriantrhope, hippogriff = chimera.