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September 02, 2004

Comments

Giblets rightly asks, "do you got the balls to vote for George Bush?"

Giblets also adds, in comments:

"if you vote for Bush you will GROW a fully-functional set of male reproductive organs and thus be a useful contributor to the American Experience!"

I had given up after the Miller speech. I wish I had gone out of my way to see Arnold's speech instead. But two of my close Democratic friends thought that Cheney's speech was good.

I listened to Miller's speech for as long as I could stomach last night, which ended up being about a minute and a half. When I heard him say, "John Kerry would let Paris decide when the U.S. needed defending!" I thought, "Huh, Glenn Reynolds looks different on television," and I changed the freakin' channel.

As a partisan Dem, I think Zell did a wonderful job for the cause. Not since Pat Buchanan demanded the GOP "take back our culture" has a GOP Convention speaker so advanced the cause of Dems.

Thanks, Zell.

In fairness to Cheney, he gave a much more sober and cogent speech than Zell. (I realize that my post may be read to suggest otherwise, and, when I have a moment, I'll update it accordingly.)

Cheney was OK...Arnold's remains the speech to beat in the convention so far.

One observation. Remember how the Democrats brought out their former presidents to speak?

Why is 41 simply sitting in the balcony? Who better to explain who a man is than his own father? We have a rare occurence in US politics, a possible testimony within a dynasty, and Daddy's relegated to the bleachers.

Why is 41 simply sitting in the balcony?

Never let it be said Edward doesn't tee 'em up high.

If Arnold is considered the high point speechwise of the RNC it shows what a dismal affair it's been. He openly gay bashes by calling Democrats "Girlie Men", the thing homophobes have called us for eons, and it's cheered! It's so openly hostile towards gays while at the same time renders the women of our Party irrelevant. If this is the best snake oil this convention can sell they are in deep, deep trouble. To compare him in any fashion to Obama is ludicrous. Arnold is a robotic speaker at best, and just another towel-snapping locker room bully we've come to know so well since the dawn of Gingrich, only this time on steriods.

"Why is 41 simply sitting in the balcony? "

Because George Herbert Walker Bush is a scum-sucking moral coward and betrayer whose hands would drip with the blood of innocent Iraqis in any universe where justice had tangible physical properties. He should be grateful that he was not driven from the building with whips and every place that his feet had trod scoured clean with acid, salt and flame.

But perhaps I'm prejudiced against the man.

Whoa there, Moe, that's an uncharacteristically strong statement.

Why is 41 simply sitting in the balcony?

Because he and his son are somewhat estranged at the moment. You see, Bush41 isn't too happy that his son accused him of "cutting and running" in 1991.

Read all about it here.

wilfred, I didn't compare him with Obama. I simply pointed out his was the best speech so far. I agree that's not necessarily saying much contentwise, but oratorically speaking, he was the most successful.

Never let it be said Edward doesn't tee 'em up high.

Why, whatever do you mean? ;p

"Whoa there, Moe, that's an uncharacteristically strong statement."

I can be reasonable about Senator Kerry, Senator Clinton, former President Clinton, former Governor Dean, Rev. Sharpton - and even Mr. Nader if you give me enough warning time... but all of my laborous and haphazard attempts to maintain an even strain completely fall apart when it comes to that man.

edward, you weren't the one who compared him to Obama. It's in the original post above.

Moe Lane wrote:

Because George Herbert Walker Bush is a scum-sucking moral coward and betrayer whose hands would drip with the blood of innocent Iraqis in any universe where justice had tangible physical properties. He should be grateful that he was not driven from the building with whips and every place that his feet had trod scoured clean with acid, salt and flame.

Silly me, I always thought it had something to do with a concern about our Arab “allies” located on our supply lines, the legal limits of the UN mandate, a lack of support (both foreign and domestic) for going into Baghdad, and an overly optimistic belief in the strength of the Iraqi resistance and the weakness of Saddam Hussein’s forces. Glad to know that it wasn’t any of these things, it was just that Bush 41 was a “coward and betrayer.”

edward, you weren't the one who compared him to Obama. It's in the original post above.

oops...see what being so self-centered does for you...my bad.

moe, one more post like that and i won't be responsible for the heavy breathing on the other end of your phone line :)

Moe just lacks the Vision Thing. :D

Wilfred --

Obama gave a great speech, and had much better delivery than Arnold, but Arnold's "you are a Republican, if" litany was as good as anything Obama said.

As for "girlie men": In the way it was used, I don't think you can call it a slam on gays. If anything, it's poking fun at Arnold's own larger-than-life persona. (And, if you think it homophobic, you should first take your complain to SNL -- not Arnold.) Given that Arnold is about as gay-friendly a Republican as they come, I'd not read so much into it. He's on the right side of this issue, after all -- and you don't get anywhere by attacking allies.

Edward asks:

One observation. Remember how the Democrats brought out their former presidents to speak?

No doubt because they realized the less time focused on their actual candidate the better. ;)

Why is 41 simply sitting in the balcony?

Actually a better question might be why didn’t any of the speakers at the Democrat convention want to talk about Senator Kerry’s voting record over the last nineteen years?

Arnold is no friend to gays or women. He is no liberal and only looks remotely palatable when superimposed against the neocons currently in power. Just because a person acts like "some of my best friends are" doesn't make it so.

And the SNL stuff was a brilliant comedy taking him down a peg by making him look like a bullying fool. But that was 20 years ago, now he co-opts that and uses it to bully further. For anyone to disparage anothers masculinity is pathetic and should be roundly slammed. Again, with SNL "quien es mas macho?' was a joke poking fun of machismo, not an endorsement.

"strength of the Iraqi resistance and the weakness of Saddam Hussein’s forces. Glad to know that it wasn’t any of these things, it was just that Bush 41 was a “coward and betrayer.” "

I am referring to his decision to call for the Iraqi people to rise up after the Gulf War... and his subsequent abandonment of them to their fate once they actually did so, the oathbreaking, self-serving apparatchnik of a man. Say what you like about his successor, but at least Bill Clinton did something right when it came to encouraging freedom in Iraq: the no-fly zones should have been up a half decade earlier.

ok, that did it. what's your number :)

von -

I just saw your post on RedState where you said you will not be voting for Bush. I'm glad to hear it. Your reasons are strikingly similar to mine (at least I think so). I also understand your refraining from posting about politics on RedState and giving the RedStaters room for their love-in.

I'm going to try to respectfully stay in the posting mix over at RedState because I feel that some of the glaring factual errors ought to be rebutted by someone. But I expect I will weary of it shortly. Anyways, I'm glad to see that some people believe that incompetence should not be rewarded with another four years.

Kind of a repeat of the Bay of Pigs fiasco, Moe?

Forgive the terse comments today; I'm boarding up the windows. And it's so hot, I've been forced to drink a beer or two. Or three.

Before my time, Slarti, before my time. Although as I recall a large part of that fiasco was letting the operation slop over into another Administration's watch.

Moe

PS: Stay safe and avoid microbrews. God help you, the light beers will be less dehydrating, which may be important if you lose your water supply.

Forgive the terse comments today; I'm boarding up the windows. And it's so hot, I've been forced to drink a beer or two. Or three.

Stay safe, Slart But it might be wise to conserve your vital supplies. I just got an email from some friends on the Turks who said they were on their second pitcher of margaritas.

Moe, I fully agree with you about 41. There's also his actions (or, rather, lack thereof) when the Soviet Union collapsed. The former SU really needed help to transfer itself from a command/ Communist economy to a mixed/ Capatalist economy, and 41 refused to provide it. Now Russia looks like it's being run by a collaberation between Enron and the Mafia -- and they have nuclear weapons with international delevery systems.

And Belarus is worse.

But 41 couldn't be bothered.

I didn't think the "Girlie Men" comment was necessarily gay bashing (although my antenna are not so sharp in that direction).

What it struck me as was simply juvenile. What's next, if you don't support changes to the alternative minimum tax, you are a poopyhead? Is that the level of political discourse that we want to encourage?

dantheman
Well, they are trying to engage the youth market. But someone should tell them that the minimum voting age is 18.

Actually a better question might be why didn’t any of the speakers at the Democrat convention want to talk about Senator Kerry’s voting record over the last nineteen years?

Yeah, that feeds so naturally off my observation.

Never miss a beat, no matter how out of sync, to bash Kerry, eh Thorley?

Timshel --

I'm going to have a longer post on this (my decision -- this time final* -- not to support Bush in this election), but it'll take a few days.

I'll continue to post at Redstate on non-campaign issues, though. At heart, I'm more comfortable with the Republican platform, and think it more likely to move than Republicans in my direction than the Democrats. I can't, however, vote for this man. Call me a Zell Miller Republican -- minus the firebreathing, plus the sober reflection (I hope).

I have not yet decided to vote for Kerry.

von

*As I say, any other changes in my voting direction will be kept between me and the voting machine. Enough with the Hamlet schtick!

I'm going to have a longer post on this (my decision -- this time final*

Anyone not going through the same process you are here isn't a true moderate anyway von. It's not a close election for nothing.

Zell Miller should have his Party Membership revoked by the dems. It's one thing to be bipartisan, or in favor of a "unity government". It's quite another to claim maverick standing by impugning the honor of the members of your own political party. It's not being Maverick. It's simply being unaccountable. If you so strongly disagree with what your party is doing, you should quit, like Jim Jeffords did. Zell Miller, you're no Jim Jeffords. You're no Ben Nighthorse Cambpell either.


And one other thing von. I don't like the constructions of political construction either. (eg. using them as a singular pronoun.)

But "balls" is a little to gender-specific as you rightly note in your footnote. Balls/ovaries, however, is just another unfortunate politically correct construction.

However, from those dark days, one geuninely good gender-neutral term did arise. You don't need balls. You just need 'nads.

But "balls" is a little to gender-specific as you rightly note in your footnote. Balls/ovaries, however, is just another unfortunate politically correct construction.

I actually thought I was poking fun at political correctness. Ahh, well.

"Anyone not going through the same process you are here isn't a true moderate anyway von."

(Dryly) Amazing how often my political identification seems to mutate on the web; I'm apparently a radical one day, conservative the other, moderate a third, RiNO a fourth, fascist according to (past) drive-by critics... and yet my actual positions don't change all that much.

Very bemusing.

Welcome to the club, Moe: just yesterday I got to be a slightly leftish centrist -- and me with the blood of Swedish Social Democrats coursing through my veins!

I remember the comment that that came from, hilzoy. I had to bite my cheek, hard, to avoid saying something uncomplementary whilst pointing out that you and Edward weren't all that close to the center. And that Moe is hardly the stereotypical right-wing zealot (I won't mention this to the boys at the lodge, Moe).

von, I knew you were poking fun at political correctness. I was poking fun too. Irony is just hard to do in print.

Truth be told, Moe, I experience profound cognitive dissonance anytime I try to peg you as a moderate, simply because of your apparently unwavering support for Bush. That all evidence aside from that one niggling fact paints you as someone I'd like to game and toss back a few with does my confusion no aid.

But then, I think I've been giving the left half of the blogosphere (and particularly some of the loonier elements of dKos) plenty of reason to suspect I'm a right wing tool recently, so I guess I'm in good company.

Probably what Edward was trying to say (at least, what I took from it, after I got over my initial reaction) was, if you're not willing to seriously consider both major party candidates for an election, you may be a moderate something (e.g. Democrat or Republican), but you're probably not a Moderate, full-stop.

I was surprised at that other comment too -- I get the impression that some readers of this blog mentally edit out the posts that they already agree with. Or they just like the sense of being an oppressed minority.

to avoid saying something uncomplementary whilst pointing out that you and Edward weren't all that close to the center.

You'd be shocked how many of my leftie friends feel I'm one step away from being a death beast myself. Obviously the center is one degree to the left or right of where you are.

Someone on Tacitus once called me a "Republican in Training"...I searched him down and bludgeoned him, of course,...not that there's anything wrong with being a Republican, mind you ; )

regarding my comment to von. I meant to imply that in a race that's this close, those folks who are ideologically in the center would naturally see a profound dilemma, and changing their minds as the race progresses seems natural to me...it was not meant to be a definition of any one here...

I know there are many who feel Kerry is the quintessential "liberal", but compared to Kucinich or Buchanan, he's actually not that far left of Bush...Many liberal's call him "Bush lite."

Stay safe, Slart But it might be wise to conserve your vital supplies. I just got an email from some friends on the Turks who said they were on their second pitcher of margaritas.

Not to derail this thread further, but our generator just arrived. Speaking of margaritas, and all. By "just arrived", I mean that a dear, dear friend was out foraging around for generators and kindly picked up one for us, too. All she could find was Honda. Ouch.

I'll probably be checking in and out until Saturday morning, perhaps.

"Someone on Tacitus once called me a "Republican in Training"...I searched him down and bludgeoned him, of course,...not that there's anything wrong with being a Republican, mind you ; )"

You proved that you weren't a Republican in training by the fact that you didn't preemptively stop him from accusing you of being a near-Republican.

I punched someone for starting to say that "Sebastian is a left-....", but apparently he was going to end with -handed person and I felt slightly bad afterwards.

;)

Gotcha, Mac & Ed.

From my perspective, no one's a moderate. It all depends on what routinely ticks you off, who ticks you off, and how frequently you're ticked off. Get me on certain subjects (SUVs, Bobby Knight, people who can't parallel park, Bobby Knight throwing a chair a Steve Reid, Oliver North, Bobby Knight strangling his own son at practice, Political Puppets, Bobby Knight getting in a pissing match with Murray Sperber, Hummers (the car, you sickos), Folks Who Protest WTO Meetings, Folks Who Like and Support Bobby Knight, etc.*), and I'll go Zell on y'all right-quick.

von

*And I attended IU.

von -- I'm completely with you on Hummers. I gather it's lucky I don't know enough about Bobby Knight to have a view one way or the other. (I seem to recall he is in some way connected with sports...)

Check this out -- via Pandagon. (Graphic from the NYT about the number of times various words were used by convention speakers.)

Sometimes taking a moment to consider an issue is enough to set some people off. I have a friend who cursed me for not agreeing with Ron Reagan about a cure for Alzheimer's being a mere ten years away.
Needless to say, the only info he had was from Ron Reagan's speech yet my father died from the disease. I supposedly bought the "right wing agenda" on Alzheimer's.

By the way, do you right wingers have an agenda on Alzheimer's? Because if you do I may have wrongly stood up for your side.

Off topic, but I knew a guy who once threw Bobby Knight off his property, down around Bedford, for hunting without permission.

hilzoy
That graphic is terrific and points out once again that the republicans are obviously the party of hope and the democrats can only harp.

Phillip J B
I bet someone was close to getting a load of buckshot in their ass that day. I hope it was Bobby.

"By the way, do you right wingers have an agenda on Alzheimer's? Because if you do I may have wrongly stood up for your side."

What kind of agenda? My paternal grandmother died of it. My maternal grandfather is dying of it. That suggests that it is likely that it will affect my nuclear family as well. I had a job compiling data from a Sandoz drug trial 8 or so years ago. I hope scientists are able to find a cure or at least slow the disease down enough that I don't have to watch my mom lose knowledge of me.

But I don't support fetal transplantation therapies and I have doubts about embryonic stem cell research.

What counts as an agenda?

hilzoy, that is a neat graphic. I confess I've done my best to avoid all convention coverage -- can anyone who was actually watching say to what extent the word count captures the reality of what speakers focussed on?

I was making light. I do support embryonic stem cell research but my friend knows that. Of course, he's also an idiot.

(By the way, the last I knew early onset passes down strongest on paternal lines - if that gives you any comfort.)

Because George Herbert Walker Bush is a scum-sucking moral coward and betrayer whose hands would drip with the blood of innocent Iraqis in any universe where justice had tangible physical properties.

Funny, I feel roughly the same way except that it's the Chinese dissidents we hung out to dry after Tiananmen that gets my blood boiling. For a guy I don't really dislike (no matter how hard I try) he really pisses me off.

Nice graphic, hilzoy, but I wonder why they put up more Republicans than Democrats (six to four). It undercuts the comparison, I think.

Conspicuously absent in the graphic: "Osama bin Laden."

I'm completely with you on Hummers.

I trust we're still talking about the motor vehicle, here.

Is it just me, or does Bobby Knight have the most brilliant coaching mind in college basketball? He also has dreamy eyes.

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